The Point of View questions thread

Discussion in 'Point of View, and Voice' started by SB108, Jul 8, 2007.

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  1. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    No, I mean omniscient. I'm sure of that. But it seems like not too many people here play around with that POV. It's a little tricky, I think. But I don't want multiple POVs. I want an omniscient narrator. And not a narrator that appears in any sort of way to be a character or take on any sort of personality. This is for a short story I'm writing. I had someone read it, and they said it was a little hard to tell at the beginning that it was omniscient, but that it became clear as the story continued. So, I need to clean up the beginning, but I'm just having a hard time knowing how to have that reflect the rest of the story. It's a tough one. I appreciate you guys for trying to help. Thanks.
     
  2. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    What about voice? I realize that to have a distinctive voice you have to have something of a personality, but...you sort of don't have to have an identity, if you see the distinction? If your narrator has a voice that's quite different from the characters' voices, that might help?

    Hmm. I'm wishing I had an example.
     
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  3. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    Thanks. This is good. I think I have style and voice going on, but I don't want to push that too far so it seems like it's another sort of character telling the story. I guess that's what I meant when I said I want my narrator to be invisible. For this one, I want the story to take center stage and not the way it's written if that makes sense.
     
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  4. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    I think Austen's a good example. There's no identifiable narrator, but there's a definite narrative voice that makes fun of the characters.
     
  5. Alex R. Encomienda

    Alex R. Encomienda Contributor Contributor

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    I use an omniscient narrator. I like to think of it simply as a kind of voiceover.

    The way I avoid head hopping is with every scene, I pick a pov character and tell the story through his/her eyes. Perhaps, you can pick a few more if it is done neatly and understandable. In my WIP, I have multiple pov characters but in each scene, one usually becomes the viewer/experiencer.

    I hope that helps a little.
     
  6. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    But omniscient is the POV. I don't want to switch to third limited which it sounds like you're suggesting. For me, that would mess everything up. I want to maintain an omniscient POV.
     
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  7. Elven Candy

    Elven Candy Pay no attention to the foot in my mouth Contributor

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    Ugh, forget it. The quote feature seems to be malfunctioning...

    To put it simply OP, don't worry about first vs. third person; if you're writing in close third person there really isn't much difference anyway. What you should worry about is making sure your fictional city "feels" like it's in France. That is how you'll make your story seem authentic.
     
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  8. Gary Wed

    Gary Wed Active Member

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    I have no idea why it would be better if in 1st or 3rd, simply because the book has French characters in it?
    Also, we all need to stop saying 3rd person. Every time I hear someone say that I instantly want to know how they are defining their 3rd person viewpoint. Elven alluded to it because most contemporary 3rd person work is either limited 3rd or multiple limited 3rd. Then there are the various forms of omniscience and even reporter form, just to get started on that.

    So, let me make an assumption, here. Suppose the reviewer noticed that much of the story comes to us via various views. A local, perhaps, and then in the next chapter the main character. If that is the case, MULTIPLE LIMITED 3rd, might make some sense, and that would make 1st person harder to sell. It really does matter what we are talking about here, so there's that.

    As to the idea of promoting the Frenchness of the work, that is an issue of view and voice. If the work is about an English person in a foreign land, then the view is English, the voice is persuaded by the English, and the idea that the voice of the work needs to be French is idiotic. The Frenchness is going to be the externalities to that, and contrasts to the view.
     
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  9. Gary Wed

    Gary Wed Active Member

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    I will switch back and forth between some form of limited 3rd work or 1st person, depending upon the viewpoint of one novel versus the next. Generally speaking, if I have an unusually quirky viewpoint actor, particularly if she is unreliable, I will go for 1st person. Otherwise I do a lot of close limited 3rd work, often with only one viewpoint character for the entire book. Needless to say, if I find a need to promote other viewpoints, I will go to multiple limited 3rd, though there are a few tricks you can employ in 1st, if the viewpoint only changes a time or two. Another good option is omniscient limited, which I've not done, but would feel pretty comfortable doing, if I chose to.

    I do think that people often feel that 1st person allows you more access to the thoughts and feelings of the main character, but that can be done just as capably in close limited 3rd work, assuming you’re good at it. Most are not good at it.

    Conversely, one of the biggest problems with 1st person is you can gain easy access to thoughts and feelings (sound familiar?). Thus the insane levels of TELL abuse that turns so many off when they read bad 1st person. The story mostly does not reside inside the head of the viewpoint actor. Count on that. The convenience of dwelling in there exists equally in limited 3rd and 1st, but writers falsely imagine it is more natural while writing 1st person, and so they indulge more when in 1st. The issue ought to be: Should I linger there? If the writer overextends the stay, it's a sign that maybe they ought to become acquainted with the big three: Dialogue, direct action, internal narrative. That's three, not one.

    For a fact, most writers think their readers want to hear all those thoughts, but when polled, most readers would prefer much less of it.

    The other problem with 1st (that cause people to dislike it) is the continual crediting of the viewpoint. I, I, I, I, I. Then again, if we are in 3rd, we might start all our sentences with She, She, She, She, She, and there you are with the same problem in 3rd. What that speaks to is the need to write more directly and stop crediting the viewpoint, like some kind of bad narrator. It isn’t that: I saw the fork in the road. Or that: She saw the fork in the road. Rather, in either case: There is a fork in the road. Direct observation, viewpoint assumed. Why? Well because we’ve been there in that view all along and it feels natural to remain with that view and assume the source of all we encounter.

    Note that you may write: There is a fork in the road, in either 1st or 3rd, viewpoint assumed, in either case. I have had occasion to write whole pages of work, wherein the only difference between 1st or 3rd is a handful of pronouns, and even those being seriously few. Either you are with the view or you are not, and viewpoint management defines every bit of that. That’s why viewpoint is the central issue of all good writing. By viewpoint I don’t mean 1st, and I don’t mean limited 3rd, and I don’t mean omniscience. I mean HAVE ONE. Once you get that concept, you can write any POV you want, and achieve the exact same intimacy result.

    I first started thinking like this when a writer friend of mine (Denise Verico) said she had a publisher who'd like one of my farce novels, but she only liked 3rd person work (which is stupid, but hey, it's a publisher). So, I thought, there is no difference between 1st person and close limited 3rd, so no big deal. And that's true. So, I wrote a few in close limited and got pretty tight with it, to the point where I was able to prove to that either form can be applied to the same task, rather seamlessly, and with the same level of closeness to character. But, once you need to wander afield from view, all bets are off.
     
  10. Thundair

    Thundair Contributor Contributor

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    In first person. What does you mc look like? Ah ha, she had to look in a mirror or have someone tell her.

    I recently changed a short story, Embedded too Deep from third to first. Her journey of going to Iraq as an embedded reporting and ending with her fighting with the Kurdish Peshmerga had more insight and feeling in first person. When it was suggested to me to change to first, I thought oh no I can't go back to that. But I decided to do it for practice and I was surprised how personable it was.
     
  11. Gary Wed

    Gary Wed Active Member

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    I would challenge this part of your post. I have written a lot of novels, and not once have I had occasion to inform the reader about what my MC looked like via a mirror. Nor have I much relied upon someone doing an As You Know Bob babble about what she looks like. There are so many natural ways to expose what your MC looks like, and in particular I suggest to not spend any time worrying about it, because they will surface on their own.

    The second part of that is to know that there is zero difference between doing that in 1st person and limited 3rd person. You have the exact same problem. Which isn't a problem because plenty of opportunities will present themselves.
     
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  12. Thundair

    Thundair Contributor Contributor

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    @Gary Wed I think I was saying I was surprised how easy it was to change from third to first with a revelation to me that it was much more personable.
    In my case the looks of my MC were important in the fact that she now had darker skin, grey hair, and a flat chest. I wouldn't have given it any concern but this was in the mid 1800s and a mirror wan't always available. I thought I may have someone comment on the changes, and I might have done that a time of two.
     
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  13. DK3654

    DK3654 Almost a Productive Member of Society Contributor

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    I've been using 3rd person for my WIP because it's flexible and because I have multiple POV characters and 3rd person makes it easier to switch between them whenever I want and not have character dedicated chapters or something.
     
  14. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    What is "omniscient limited?" Isn't omniscient the opposite of limited?

    I'm not so sure that there is zero difference. I see them having big differences when it comes to how how a story is told and comes out between these two POVs. Sure, you can just change pronouns, but that's just a small piece of the puzzle when it comes to what you can really do and the true potential of working with any sort of POV.
     
  15. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I don't see much difference. However, one difference that I do see is that in first person, you can have a quite formal voice and still show a lot of character thoughts and feelings. For me, getting those thoughts and feelings in close third involves a less formal voice--I need to float up and down from narrative to almost-literal or fully-literal character thoughts, and I need to do it without italics for literal thought, because I refuse to use italics, and for me, that involves informality. But I strongly suspect that's a problem that has many solutions--the italic solution, and others.
     
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  16. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    I will happily read first person books and stories. But I really can't write first person. For me, I is really "I." For me to develop a character who isn't actually me, it has to be a he or she. It's just one of my quirks. I've been 'writing' stories in my head since I was a child, and the hero/heroine was never 'I.'

    I don't tend to use the omniscient point of view, though. I always write (and think) in third person limited. It's just a rut I've got into, I suppose. But hey.
     
  17. Just a cookiemunster

    Just a cookiemunster Active Member

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    I'm a third person girl all the way!! I love the author narration of third person and the world view. It feels like I see everything from a zoomed out world view perspective and first person feels like a prison. I only write third person but I have read some amazing first person books so I do not discriminate. But if I had to choose it would be third.
    Third person feels like a story being told. First feels like reading someone's diary. Both have their place.
     
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  18. Selbbin

    Selbbin The Moderating Cat Staff Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    Breakfast at Tiffany's, To Kill a Mockingbird, The Great Gatsby, Anything by Bukowski, On The Road, and my new favourite: True Grit (an under-rated masterpiece).


    For me first person can't be beat. It's just so.... intimate and personal. Like someone sharing their story, not a story.
     
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  19. Gary Wed

    Gary Wed Active Member

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    Good question, and one that gets to the issue of what it means when someone says, “I write 3rd person.” To me, and to many here who have studied this, saying that you write 3rd person is like admitting you don’t know what you are talking about. That’s because I’d never say I write 3rd person. I’d say that I write Journalist objective, or that I write omniscient with a strong external view and occasional handoffs to three limited actors, or that I writer multiple limited or that I write close limited, or any of many other forms of 3rd person.

    Omniscient limited means one of two things (and I'm not even going to touch objective versus subjective, here): It means Omniscient multi-limited or omniscient limited (with ONLY one actor as view, other than the external narrator). We lump both of those into the term omniscient limited. That said, basically you have an external narrator (say Grandpa's voice and window), who serves are invisible narrator for the story, and upon some occasion of Grandpa’s choosing, he hands the camera down to some actor and that actor become LIMITED, or in other words, the viewpoint for a while.

    At this point it helps to define what a viewpoint is: On the most fundamental level, it is the window into the work, such that what is presented, and how it is presented, the narrative voice, what is ignored, etc., is the exclusive domain of one actor (omniscient or otherwise). The only entity (for the segment, section, chapter or book) who can directly think, see, taste, feel, hear or smell, is the viewpoint.

    Thus, in omniscient limited, the invisible narrator is thinking, showing emotion maybe, hearing, seeing, feeling, and at some point he hands the view on down to an actor on the ground, and that person, for the time being, is the only person in the pages who is thinking, seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting or smelling.

    This is different from Limited 3rd, wherein there is never an external (omniscient) narrator, but from right out of the gate, one of the actors on the page is the ONLY person who can think, see, hear, taste, touch or smell. It is one guy, even if the book is 100,000 words long (and I’ve written a dozen such things, personally.) Such an approach can become very much like 1st person.

    And that is different from Multiple Limited 3rd, wherein you might have occasion to switch to a new viewpoint (say at chapter breaks). When we discuss 3rd person, lots of people are imagining this. It is quite common to see viewpoints switch at chapter or section breaks.

    As well, all of that is different from a whole range of other Omniscient approaches, which might include other approaches to the omniscient actor and the handoffs, to include a pure omniscient approach that never lets anyone think, see, hear, taste, feel or smell, other than the external, or a baton approach that has one actor head off to the other, but in a very sneaky author control mode that is actually quite expert (such as Mary walking out the door, and the last person she spoke to picking up the viewpoint, the door closing being the baton). Being omniscient, that would by definition, include trips up and down from characters to the external narrator. That sneaky old omniscient label might also include an omniscient narrator who is just the plain old vanilla writer, which I personally feel is lazy and lame, but that’s just me, based upon seeing no need to kill voice in favor of author indulgence.

    Adding to that is the extremely common mistake of head hopping, which is often mistaken for legitimate forms, such as omniscient limited, multiple limited or even baton application in omniscient or multiple limited. Most writers start off head hopping (myself included). Once they learn that it’s ugly, they either reform their evil ways or they redefine themselves as omniscient writers, which is true. Omniscience can mean ugly old head hopping. Still, doing so is far too convenient, and not much help because just saying you are omniscient means just about nothing, it being too wide of a definition to be practical, until you further define your limits and tell us how you are handling it in order to make use of viewpoint.

    That said, you can now get an appreciation of why I feel that someone saying, “I write 3rd person,” leaves way more questions than answers on the table, and if that is as far as the writer goes, it means they have no idea how to make viewpoint work for them and are winging it.
     
  20. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    I too studied writing but don't quite see things the way you do. Omniscient is the viewpoint and I don't see how an all-knowing, all-seeing viewpoint is limited in any way. I still see omniscient and any sort of limited as being on opposite ends of the third person spectrum. Omniscient isn't about switching POV characters. It is more removed from the characters than that. Just the way I see it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2019
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  21. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    "Omniscient limited", as described here, sounds like two different POVS - sometimes the book's in omniscient, sometimes it's in limited. It's not simultaneously omniscient AND limited.

    It's not a term that does much for me, personally. I think it's clear to think in terms of two different POVs, not one POV that behaves very differently at different points of the book.
     
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  22. Gary Wed

    Gary Wed Active Member

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    Let me break that down a bit. First off, since you said you had to float up and down from narrative to close view, in limited 3rd. Then you said that you needed to use italics for direct thought. While it is true that you can be less direct in limited 3rd, you are not actually floating up and down, in most good work. As well, a direct thought does not take italics. Only internal monologue takes italics. I'll break that down for you:

    Most common: Indirect thought.
    Middle commonality: Direct thought
    Least common: Internal monologue (written 1st person and in italics)

    Back to the original thought: The plain-old-ordinary narrative of good close limited work is HUGELY shaded by the viewpoint actor. All of it. This is even true in the indirect thought. So, you went to the trouble of defining the world through the ideas, attitudes and interests of ONE SOLITARY PERSON, and yet you imply that it does not define voice. That would be a problem. If my narrative fell out of voice, I'd change it. And, if my voice did not reflect the world through view, I'd change it. Notice I didn't say anything, there, about 1st person or limited 3rd. In either event, my narrative voice is reflecting my view and thus distinct.
     
  23. Gary Wed

    Gary Wed Active Member

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    I don't use omniscient limited, either, but I know folks who do quite well with it, so it is a very common form of omniscient writing.

    Your comment about how it feels like two different views is precisely correct. It is. In that regard it is exactly like multiple limited view. In multiple limited view we might have Mary as the viewpoint for chapter one, and Joe as viewpoint for chapter two. As you know, that is so commonly done that many people thing that's what all 3rd person writing does, in fact. A good, solid 70% of 3rd person genre work does that. But wait a minute, What if Mary is the external narrator, and thus invisible? Is that any different? Not really. So, omniscient limited, with at least two views, is exactly the same thing as MOST 3RD PERSON WRITING. It is the same form as multiple limited 3rd, with the only difference being that one actor is not physically walking around on the street.
     
  24. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    You have a tendency to present your opinions as if they're obvious truths. Even apart from the "like admitting you don't know what you're talking about" nonsense, I feel like you're expecting a LOT of respect for your authority, but I'm not sure it's justified. I can't find an introductory post for you - have you done one? Or have you outlined your credentials somewhere else? Barring some pretty impressive credentials, I think it might be more appropriate for you to present your ideas as ideas, or include links to sources?
     
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  25. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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