The Point of View questions thread

Discussion in 'Point of View, and Voice' started by SB108, Jul 8, 2007.

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  1. Seiya

    Seiya Member

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    Thanks for the comments.
    I should also probably clarify.
    By POV I mean that the book is all 3rd person perspective where in the prologue we have focus on the protag (as if the camera was behind her so to speak) when she is a girl and a tragedy is happening which shapes her.
    Chapter 1 is still 3rd person but now we're focusing on someone else (now the camera is behind him), years in the future, where protag will make an appearance half way through the scene.
    I'm still considering If I want a scene transition to put the focus back on her midway through that chapter but chapter 1 is always such a nightmare to write.
    After chapter 1 no-one else but protag will be seen again. Why? She won't be on Earth anymore... :p
    That's why it's a little bit different and why any named characters introduced in chapter 1 can't and won't (barring some magical transportation which I'm not looking to do) be involved in the rest of the book.
     
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  2. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    Is there a particular reason for wanting a distant perspective throughout the story? That would feel pretty cold and—well, distant. I would think when you come back to the main character you'd want to go into his/her head for a close perspective. You can begin distant and transition to close, which is pretty common. Often a scene will begin outside of the character, like a camera view, and with the MC not even in the 'shot' at first, instead detailing the scene visually, and then after a paragraph or 2 like that you show the character, and then you shift into their head and remain there for the rest of the scene or the story. It's also common to sometimes transition out of their head when you need to show something external and their own reactions aren't so important, but the 'camera' should still remain close to them. When you move in or out of their head you want to transition smoothly. Something like:

    The mountains stood majestic and stolid over Cityville, clouds wreathing their upper peaks. Across the broad valley antelope and chickens frolicked and tumbled and penguins darted nervously to and fro clutching their homework. Sam stood atop the small hill known as Grumbledown Viceroy, surveying the town spread below. His town.

    "No!" He shouted into the gathering storm, "I'll never relent!"

    He finished assembling the sniper rifle from the case that lay open at his feet. Then he set up the small tripod and nestled the heavy gun into it—sighted through the massive scope, and swung it slowly across Main Street, picking out each store and building along the way. He knew them all intimately, hated each with a burning vengeance.

    I'll show them he thought. They'll remember me, those who survive.

    This was surreal, stupid, and mostly a joke, but it does illustrate how to transition from an external (objective) POV, show your character, and then move behind his eyes and into his head. I sort of moved into his head stage by stage—first he spoke, then he performed some actions, and then I went right into his inner thoughts.

    When you want to move out of his head later you can reverse the order, or just do it suddenly at a chapter break or scene break.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2020
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  3. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    Wait, I think I misunderstood. You didn't actually say you wanted a distant POV throughout the story, only for the prologue and chapter 1. Oops! :whistle: :ohno:
     
  4. Seiya

    Seiya Member

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    Oh no There will be no distant perspective. Your example of a 3rd person POV is mostly what I'm aiming for.
    So to write an quick (and dirty writing) example

    Prologue

    She was hurting inside, not physical pain but a mental anguish that was nigh on inconsolable. Her friends could do nothing but watch her weep over the casket of her dead parents.

    Unbeknownst to anyone there at that time this would be the pivotal moment that her life's path would take a dramatic turn.
    Chapter 1


    David Fletcher was on foot patrol along the usually quiet streets of Inverness, it was an unusually hot day this far up the North of Scotland...
    ...
    ...


    If we were to base this ghastly written example on my previous question, David Fletcher will never be seen again (after a short encounter with protag midway in chapter as he watches her do her thing). Also, yes it appears I've misused the term POV here as it will always be 3rd person (not distant POV) but we're following unnamed protag (crying girl) in prologue, what she sees, what she feels then we switch to and focus on David in Chap 1 and it's what he sees and what he feels then onwards past that only the girl appears plus new characters.

    Of course we've named David, it's the first chapter after a prologue but he'll never appear again, because essentially he can't.
    My unnamed protag gets moved to a fantasy world after she dies then her name is revealed :D
     
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  5. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    Just to be sure we're on the same page, 3rd person can be in either close or distant (or Omniscient, which is a whole different can of worms).

    Are you sure you need David's chapter to also be in a close perspective? That could cause the kind of confusion people are talking about, where he might be seen as another protagonist or even the main protagonist. I would strongly consider writing his chapter in 3rd person distant POV, or maybe move between distant and close, but favor distant as much as you can. Use any tricks you can to make it clear he isn't someone important.
     
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  6. Richach

    Richach Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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    When I write I do it almost entirely in 'tell' as it is easier and by far the quickest way to finish the first draft. Then I fix all the issues at the end with the editing process; p.o.v, show, tell, plot holes, character development.

    I have tried micro analysing and editing as I go and to be frank it slows down the writing process in my opinion, almost to the point of procrastination.

    I would look at p.o.v once you complete the first draft.
     
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  7. Seiya

    Seiya Member

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    Just googling the difference between close and distant (wasn't all to sure). Ah yeah I should be keeping it distant for chapter 1 from Dave's perspective but then we still have the named character 'syndrome' perhaps?
    "He's in chapter 1 and he's named, must mean something..." kind of confusion.
    Will be on my third chapter 1 rewrite :oops:
    Though I guess with how it plays out in the end I suppose you should lend some level of intelligence to the reader?
    Given that protag has died and moved to another world, well David isn't going to likely appear again, if ever.
     
  8. Seiya

    Seiya Member

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    chapter 1 is a bit of a mess unfinished, but I know how it'll end. Already started chapter 2 which seems much better and will probably continue before I go back to chapter 1. Maybe the rest of the writing might help me decided how to complete it :)
     
  9. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    Then are you even sure that's where you should start your book at all?

    If you're gonna start using POV terms, use them properly - camera behind him isn't even a term. Is it 3rd person limited (or 3rd person close), or 3rd person omniscience? POV only means Point of View. POV can be also 1st or even 2nd person. Therefore it is impossible to say, "By POV I mean everything is in 3rd person" - those two are not the same terms.

    The truth is, if you had to ask, the answer is usually, "It's not a good idea." By all means explore it if you still wish, but you've been warned. Readers do not enjoy being misled. Readers do not care about the same things you care about. What does showing a distant POV on the MC actually add to the readers' understanding of the story that you can't possibly show in a different scene by more traditional methods? Why do you insist on doing things like this?

    I hate rules. I'm an advocate of breaking them. But you need to know the rule first and you better know why you're breaking them, and you better have a good reason. Otherwise, just don't. Very often we do non-traditional things not because we're particularly clever or artistic, but because we're enamoured by the idea for no particular reason, or worse, because it appears to be the smoothest and easiest way to achieve the thing we want. I've found taking the easiest route is not always good for your writing - being forced to do things a certain way also forces you to come up with fresh ideas that are, often, far better than your initial thought.

    Take the truly easiest route - not the convoluted route. It's a fine line.
     
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  10. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Distancing does two things, simultaneously. It allows you to tell the reader lots of stuff. It also keeps the reader at arm's length, meaning they won't actually experience anything. It's like the difference between being there, and just reading about it afterwards.

    Both have their uses. Just be aware of the effect your choices have on the reader.

    If you're going to start with a chapter of distanced perspective, the situation or dilemma you're presenting had better be innately intriguing. If it's just routine background information instead, you are likely to lose your readers before you ever hit your stride.

    You CAN present the routine background information in an intriguing way, but you'll probably need to use a POV character whose personality and outlook on these bits of information will draw us in.

    When writing, you can more or less do whatever you want. It's HOW you do it that will make the difference.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2020
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  11. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    I think what you need is a good guide to the various POV choices and how to use them effectively. Most people start with the mistaken idea that all there are is 1st, 2nd and 3rd Person, but it gets a little more complicated than that when you bring in Close and Distant and a few other factors. That was all I understood when I got here last year, all the rest was gibberish and gobbledygook until I found a great resource called Novel Writing Help.

    That's the Roadmap page that helps you navigate your way around (it's a big site with lots of information). Scroll down to the section called The Complete Guide to Point of View. It'll take a while to take it all in and for it to start to really unfold and make sense. But stick with it—it's well worth it. Nobody's writing gets really good until they understand all this POV stuff clearly.

    And you might want to stop by my blog and grab the chart I made to keep it all straight in my own mind. It's intended to work as a quick reference guide after you've studied it in depth. Note—on my chart I use the term Deep instead of Close. They mean the same thing, just different ways of saying it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2020
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  12. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    The longer I've been a writer, the more I stick to a single POV. I think head hopping can be hard to spot in our own work. So, I avoid the chance of it almost completely. Even with omniscient it takes some work to keep it on track, but close third or first (with one POV character) -- you really if you did something wrong. I write a lot of short stories so I get the chance to play around with different things like POV a lot, but I've found the closer I stick to one POV the better for the story. I've written two novels (at least early drafts) and I used first person for both. I have half a novella in third, but I've tried to stay in limited with one character.

    Sticking with one POV is something I wish I had done in my earlier writing days. I will still write in omniscient at times, but I only feel like I can actually pull it off because I'm so aware of the POV I'm using and what its limitations and advantages. I feel like (with my writing at least) it's just too easy to fall into head hopping or muddy the waters and create confusion when there are multiple POVs involved.

    Does anyone else stick with one POV for a story? It seems like a lot of people post about multiple POVs. I'm just wondering if anyone else tries to keep it simple, clear and focused with a singular POV. Not that writers can't pull off more than one POV in a story. I just don't think I can. When I stick to one POV I can worry about the story instead of the past mistakes I've made trying multiple POVs. And I just find that things come together and stay on track when I stick to a singular storytelling voice for a story. Am I missing something? Don't other people worry about head hopping and creating confusion when they juggle multiple POVs?
     
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  13. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

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    Sure. It's definitely "easier" in that you only have one camera to point around and one angle to edit. But it's also more "limiting" in that you can't show anything offscreen (for lack of a better term).

    I've found often that by writing multiple POVs I've had to add more things to justify the extra characters screen time. Sometimes that'll produce a good nugget that gives the story the extra breadth it needs. Other times it will produce stupid shit that takes the story off course. And it's a pain to edit the tangents out because they often spawn more tangents to justify the original tangent.

    I should add that a loathe first person, too, so I've always been inclined to go multi. But my short stories are almost always single POV because I'm trying to get in and out as quickly as possible.
     
  14. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    In serial form, yes. Though 3rd omniscient comprises the vast bulk of the material from my formative reading years, serial 3rd limited is my usual go-to. I switch POV only ever at chapter boundaries, never within a given chapter.
     
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  15. J.T. Woody

    J.T. Woody Book Witch Contributor

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    I have 1 WIP that is First Person.
    The others are some form of Third Person.
    My novel length WIPs are 3P-Limited (focusing on 1 or 2 characters at a time vs every character on the scene), while my shorter ones i'd say are more 3P-Objective (what they are doing vs what they are feeling)

    I admit... My First Person WIP is fun to write. Its not my typical POV... And yes, its limiting.... But it works for the piece im writing.
     
  16. Justin Fraser

    Justin Fraser New Member

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    I like to write in first person, and occasionally there will be a part of the story that will not involve the main character. When that happens, I will jump to that scene and write it in third person, then return to the main character's first person perspective. I think it works wonderfully in modicum.
     
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  17. OurJud

    OurJud Contributor Contributor

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    I know you’re not the first writer to do this, by a long stretch, but as a reader it always bothers me.
     
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  18. lamie rigor

    lamie rigor New Member

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    i usually write in third person, it's much less restrictive as you can describe your character in immense detail without breaking the pov,
    i find first person way to restricting as when i write in first person i end up losing the flow of my work and it turns out with and then this happened then this then this, without any description or anything too enticing
     

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