Regardless, the point is that markets exist that limit profanity, and yet these media do successfully carry stories of every genre. This demosntrated ==s that it is indeed very possible to write well without profanity. Maybe you have no interest in these markets. But that doesn't mean there is nothing to learn from them.
Profanity is not as limited as you may think. See:Bondocks, Robot Chicken, Sopranos, etc. At worst, different channel, later time slot, which helped those shows.
I really think of this topic as helpful. My mother actually read one of my stories the other day and she freaked when she saw me apply a swear word as that's not usually what I say. Anyway, she pretty much told me off about writing swear words or detailed scenes, which I never do really. But that's actually a good thing to do, I actually have a few ideas on how to inply it.
dunno if the series "deadwood" was mentioned in this thread. one of the most charming things i find about it is that the language is a mixture of highly articulate 19th-century drawing-room language heavily laden with f-bombs. it works and it conveys authenticity and i would hear it no other way. sometimes it's not just appropriate to use strong language- sometimes it's appropriate to saturate the piece with it. "the big lebowski" being another fine media example. not quite sure about literature, however, but there must be some good examples out there...
Swear words are useful for only two things imho. The first one is shock value. I think that's self explanitory. The other use is to sum up a huge range of emotion and thought into one word, and that goes hand in hand with shock value. Either way they need to be used sparingly, if at all. When swear words are used frequently they lose their shock value and just become disgusting. They also stop being a powerful tool for characterzation and become a crutch that conveys a shallow mind, both of the character and the author. I think that you would be very hard pressed to write a story that needed swearing more than once or twice in the whole book. To paraphrase a book I once read, "If you waste the swear words on little things like losing a girlfriend or job, what are you going to say when something really bad happens?"
I think these ideas are pretty black and white. You mentioned that you would never ever have a good character say certain words, but maybe a good character isn't a perfect character. Maybe characters have flaws and say bad things but can still hold a story and be a protagonist. Case in point, though it is in a movie: you have Billy Bob Thornton in Monster's Ball. He is a bigot and says the N word all of the time, but he is the protagonist, and he goes through change. All people are created differently, and I think it's much more interesting to set aside political correctness to invent a character that is intriguing and real to life.
Agreed. It's like you have characters like Jacob, he's a thug, leader of them and he often resorts to swearing or threats. Look, you're making this seem as if a character swears, you're a bad writer. That's rubbish. Heck, it all depends on setting, one in a school, you;ll have people swearing. It all depends on setting and situation. Or their life. Stating it's bad for a character to swear is insane. Frankly, I swear, but I often use weird alternatives, random words netted together, but still people swear. It's life.
You realize you called the likes of Kurt Vonnegut, Richard Wright and Sylvia Plath among many others, "shallow minded"
I kind of think that there's no such thing as Bad Language, just language used badly. All words have their place, and are effective if used in the right way. But they become ineffective, and produce poor writing, if they are over-used, or used in the wrong position. This is no different for swearing. If, to make the effect of your sentence perfect, you need to use a swear-word, don't be afraid to use it anymore than you would be afraid to use any other word. But don't overdo it, and make sure it's necessary, otherwise the writing just becomes too uncomfortable for the reader.
I don't find profanity necessary in writing, but then, since I don't use it in real life it would sound pretty unnatural if I started slipping it into my fiction. I understand sometimes we just want to give the reader an idea of the character and habits of the person in the story. That being said, I always find it unimaginative when a movie or novel character's vocabulary seems pretty much limited to the "F" word.
The use of profanity should be determined by the work or what is being conveyed as opposed to moronic "Ideologies" Ideals or absolutes like "Profanity is Wrong" being applied to a creative outlet like writing are the result of blind mind numbing unimaginative boxes that people with out truly developed thought process allow themselves to be bound in and worse then that, they feel obligated in their own limited scope to bind others to their lemming standards. Profanity has it's place and if used correctly it can bring to life the realism of an event, because profanity is part of Reality.
If I offended anyone with my above post, I am sorry, I am sure many will take what I have said the wrong way, such is life. I stand by what I said (not what you think I said).
That sounds an awful lot like an ideology to me. You are pretty absolute in your assertion that applying absolutes to creativity is wrong. I feel so enlightened now that the boxes of unimagination are no longer imprisoning my mind and blinding my eyes. I think I'll go write some slasher fiction and abandon my project about how conspiracy destroys nations, groups, and individuals. Pulitzer prize, here I come.
I know people will take what I have said the wrong way, Such is the nature of the written word. There is and will always be room for miscommunication between what someone has said and what the receiver thinks they have said. This breakdown in conveying ideas due to these types of circumstances is nothing short of painful tribulation to the person trying to present the point and does nothing but cause further gaps in the exchange of ideas and open communication. I stand by what I have said regarding Profanity and Ideologies, and what I believe is not open for debate or discussion. If you disagree, then so be it, we will have to agree to disagree. With that said, I will defend and stand by what I have said for as far as I have said it. If someone wants to take what I have said the wrong way I shall not seek to correct them, as that is neither my responsibly nor a burden I seek to impose upon myself. In parting I would like to add that as authors (Inspiring/hobbyist/professional) and writers (of any form and type) our first and foremost responsibility should be to be able to understand what someone else is saying with the written word. IE: We need to be able to read and comprehend what we have read. If we can not, then how can we hope to use such a medium to express our own ideas to others?
This is a simple explanation, I know, but sometimes simple works. I write futuristic sci-fi novels about bounty hunters and for about a second I tried to cut the profanity out, (because I didn't want to hear about it from my momma.) but it didn't work. It kind of came across comical, expecting a rough and tough bounty hunter not to drop a profanity here and there. I added them back in, just in moderation mind you, and turns out my mom didn't freak out about it. To clarify though; she wasn't okay with it, but she didn't go nuts either. Anyway, that’s my take on it, so no one shoot me over it okay?
It depends on what a writer intends to do with his or her writing. Which population of readers does a writer care to attract--have read their fiction, and in what numbers (it follows along with publishers that accept them--and why). There are more than a few markets that frown upon or do not accept works with profanity. If a writer wants to get published there, he'll follow what I guess some would name a moronic ideology. Okay. What works for one doesn't necessarily work for another. This goes back to what I stated early on in the thread: Beyond that, I won't comment on what has recently been stated. Readers of this thread can easily take a look and draw their own conclusions. Terry
I'm sorry. I reacted very badly to your post and I should have been more respectful. I should not have attacked your beliefs in that manner.
Thank you very much, I am humbled by your kind words. And CDRW: Thank you very much for your kind apology, and I am sorry of ou took offense from my words.
This is a question I want to put out to many people and authors to make them think a bit. Here is a question that I want you all to ponder. What is Profanity? bonus to any of you that took the time research this question so that you know what you are you are talking about when you discuss profanity and the use "impolite" words in the future. Now I want you think about this next question, take some time to ponder it before you just answer it. What makes a story Crude or Repulsive? (IE: Offensive to delicate sensibilities) Now a final question that I want you all to take into consideration. Do the two of them have anything in common?
Actually, would you mind making a separate thread for that question? I realize it's related to this thread's topic, but I'd rather keep this thread on its original focus. To restate that focus, what are the ramifications of the choice of whether or not to use explicit language in writing, as opposed to inferring it?
The only drawbacks that would occur come from how the author presents the character. If, by profanity or by prudence, an author can make a character believable then there are no ramifications.
I think it depends on who and what your character is, in my books there are a lot of military characters in it. When the crap hits the fan, and your getting shot at, language tends to be an afterthought. It tends to be an afterthought at times also in general. i think it depends on just WHO the character is.
Again, though, knowing your character uses particular words does not mean you have to capture them in print - or if you decide to, it still need not mean you do so at every opportunity. Dialogue is strategic. You don't play back a transcript of every word that would fall out of a character's mouth. Doing so is weak writing, just like describing every fidget, every bite of the character's meal, etc. As a writer, you select actions and words that move the story along or reveal the character. The use of coarse language is certainly part of delineating the character's form, but writers have many choices in how to show that language. Directly quoting the character using those words is one way, but it is not the only way. My feeling is that it's easy to write foul language (or however you wish to name it), but no writer should limit himself or herself to a single means of expression. So a writer who never tries to convey character by writing around the bad language is missing out on the opportunity to grow, or is perhaps afraid to try.
selective usage is definitely better... using the term "Kate cursed while ducking out of the way," is better more times then to say "Oh FUDGE" or "Oh CRAP" 50 million times, unless you want to get someone's attention. I tend to use the language myself at times I want to get a SPECIFIC point across there is one chapter where Kate has finished having to do a 4 on 1 fight against gladiators, only for her old nemesis to release a creature she had to fight... her: "you've got to the F****** me!" scream shows just how shge can't believe the lengths this person will go with her...it showed her mindset... but to go and write F-bombs like Fred Dursch of Limp Biskit, means your dialogue skills are indeed weak.
