To prologue or not to prologue

Discussion in 'Plot Development' started by ParanormalWriter, Aug 13, 2008.

  1. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    Nah, I just hit the forward button until it says 1:48 on the screen!
     
  2. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    The word shouldn't be important to me. But it's important enough to you that you won't read a book that includes it? Truly?

    The word and the concept is VERY important to me, because it has a specific meaning. I'm 'emotionally defending' a perfectly good, well-accepted 'word' that many authors have used the same way I use it—while ignoring the fact that you're emotionally attacking it.

    I wouldn't go there. With all due respect.
     
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  3. izzybot

    izzybot (unspecified) Contributor

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    My post-apoc novel's 'prologue' is titled 'epilogue' because it's actually a flash forward to the end of the book. Too much? :D
     
  4. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    I'm sorry, I really thought it was! I wasn't poking fun at J or anything, just mis-remembering.

    Is it 40 pages?? I have 40 in my head.

    Anyway it felt longer, I was properly engrossed!
     
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  5. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I've said several times in this thread that I will and have read books with prologues. Maybe you're thinking of someone else?

    Edited to add: However, I apologize for my use of the word "emotional", which I suspect I was unclear about. I wasn't calling you emotional or illogical, and I don't see you that way. I was making a distinction that was about my mind, not yours, and not making assumptions about yours. But I can see that it could read otherwise.
     
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  6. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Fair enough, and I'm not as miffed as I probably sounded. :) But think about it. You suggest I choose another word or label—because Prologue makes YOU go Eurgh. My reason for choosing the word Prologue is because it's the most accurate (and perfectly acceptable) way to label my opening chapter. So I gently suggest it's not me who is 'focused' on the word itself. Letting somebody ELSE choose my opening chapter title, based on 'eurgh' doesn't seem logical to me—especially if the words they would substitute don't mean the same thing.
     
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  7. Vagrant Tale

    Vagrant Tale Active Member

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    I never knew that prologues were considered a bad thing...what about them makes them bad? I was going to write one this week for a book I'm working on.
     
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  8. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    Here's some info:

    http://www.scribophile.com/blog/to-prologue-or-not-to-prologue/

    As one agent notes, many editors when receiving a submission will skip the prologue. The link isn't categorically anti-prologue, but gives some reasons people dislike them.
     
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  9. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    I'm including a link to a site which explains the use of a prologue very well indeed—including reasons and instances where it should not be used.

    The link is: www.writing-world.com/fiction/prologue.shtml

    Here's a quick excerpt from it, that says everything I've been trying to say about what a prologue is, and what it should do:

    Worker's Guidelines
    Any workplace has a list of dos and don'ts; the prologue is no exception. Here are some:
    • The prologue should always be an integral part of the novel, (not an optional one, apparently) written in the same spirit and style. Otherwise it's a personal preface rather than an opening chapter.

    • The prologue should read like a short story in every aspect, except for its ending. Rather than resolving all conflict, the end should leave the reader intrigued. Any conflict created in the prologue, however, must be resolved somewhere along the plot.

    • The prologue should start with a strong and intriguing hook as if it were the only beginning of the novel. This does not exempt Chapter One from beginning with an equally strong and intriguing hook.

    • The prologue must stand out from the body of the novel in at least one fashion: the time of the events (which should be stated both in the prologue and in the first chapter), the POV character, and so on. The reader should feel a distinct switch in his mind when he begins reading Chapter One. And just as important, he should never experience the same switch again within the novel. For example, if the difference between the prologue and Chapter One is an interval of five years, (in my case, seven) you may not fast-forward time again within the novel. (and I don't)

      The one exception is a novel wherein the point of view shifts between several characters, and the prologue is a "different POV" type. In this case, the switch between the prologue and Chapter One is bound to occur many times throughout the novel. You can keep the prologue distinct by assigning it to someone outside the group of POV characters. Later on in the novel we may meet him once more, but never see things through his eyes again.
    .....................................
    The bit in red is why you can't just call a Prologue 'Chapter One.' There is a distinct shift. I couldn't have said it better myself. I did not write this article, by the way. This is not my own head making this stuff up.
     
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  10. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    @jannert I've read plenty of novels where there is a time shift between chapters, and sometimes a very significant one. Sometimes this breaks the books into parts and sometimes not. The idea of the prologue being wholly distinct is one reason why I personally don't care for them. This all gets to personal preferences, ultimately.
     
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  11. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Yes, but the dislike is based on badly-written or unnecessary prologues, which I have never tried to defend.

    The article then goes on to say:

    Now in defense of the prologue, when it’s done well, it’s truly an amazing tool. (Yes, it is.) The number of times I’ve seen a prologue done extraordinarily well in requested submissions? Well, I can count that total on two hands…. (And that's my point. We need to learn to write them well, and make full use of the 'amazing tool.' Not avoid using it because we don't understand what it's supposed to do. Please see the article in MY link above.)

    When asked by a writer whether or not she should include the prologue when an agent requests the first ten pages of her novel, Miss Snark says this:

    If you have a prologue, DO NOT SEND IT as your first ten pages. Send the first ten of chapter one.

    No exceptions.

    That is a woman who hasn't a clue what a prologue is. Again, see my article above. A prologue isn't something you can skip—it's the actual beginning of your novel, and an integral part of it—and should be just as interesting to read as any other chapter.
     
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  12. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Personal preferences are fine, as long as they don't try to limit what somebody else should try to do. As long as they are clearly personal preferences, and can accept that other people's preferences are equally legitimate.
     
  13. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    I've never heard the rule that a time jump MUST NOT occur again after a prologue. Now THERE'S an example of a stupid arbitrary 'rule' we should all ignore...
     
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  14. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    There was a Writer's Digest article about her some time ago. Though they keep her identity secret, apparently she's a pretty successful agent. I think she knows what a prologue is. And I've heard from other agents that you're better off sending your first chapter than your prologue as your sample. If your prologue runs the entire ten pages (if that's what is requested) and the editor doesn't like prologues, you've just sunk your manuscript with that person. If you send your first ten pages and they're a hit, you're in a much better position to sell the editor on the idea of a prologue.
     
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  15. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    Hell, I just read a novel with something like a 5,000 year jump in the middle.
     
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  16. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Well, I'm with you on the arbitrariness of that—or at least on the way that statement sounds. However, that's exactly how my own prologue works.

    The rule of thumb for a Prologue chapter is that it should stand out from the entire rest of the novel in some unique way. The fact that you call it a Prologue means exactly that. So I don't see how it could be unique if the same set of circumstances keeps cropping up throughout the novel.

    But what do I know? There might well be instances where this makes sense. I just can't think of any at the moment.
     
  17. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Yep ...unless your first ten pages of Chapter One don't make a lot of sense without what has gone before. OR your agent is annoyed that you kept the fact your novel begins with a prologue from them, and tricked them into reading 10 pages of the second chapter instead. Or ...worse for you ...the agent offers to take your book but refuses to allow the Prologue at all, so your story is diminished.

    All depends on how badly you want to sell something that isn't actually what you wrote.
     
  18. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    In your case, you have made the firm decision that you will write this book the way you want it, and you're not interested in compromising that for traditional publishing or any other reason. And I don't think that you're confused or deluded about the pros and cons of self-publishing; I think that you're making an informed decision of what's best for you.

    But it's not my decision, and it's not the decision of most people. I want to be traditionally published. That means that when my work "wants" to have an aspect that makes it potentially un-publishable, I'm going to search for a compromise that will allow it to be published, while compromising the actual core of the work very little or not at all. To me, avoiding the word "prologue" doesn't compromise the work to any substantial degree, as long as the actual content of the book is what I want it to be.

    So I'm not saying that YOU, personally, should rename your prologue to be something else. Even if my words somewhere said that, which is entirely possible, it's not what I meant. :) I am saying that an author who wants to be traditionally published, who has accepted the general idea that some mild compromises might be required for that to happen, and whose prologue could reasonably be named something else, might want to seriously consider doing so.
     
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  19. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    Miss Snark was Janet Reid aka Query Shark. She definitely knows what a prologue is and she definitely hates them.
     
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  20. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    True. But from a business perspective, getting your foot in the door is a big part of the battle. If after reading the whole thing the editor wants to publish it without the prologue, it's probably because it's better without it. They want to put out the most salable work they can.
     
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  21. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    Ah! Thanks @Tenderiser. I had no idea it was Janet Reid - I thought it was still a secret :)
     
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  22. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Time jumps themselves aren't the issue. Ever read any James Michener? His time jumps are centuries long, and carry on throughout the entire books he writes. What makes a Prologue is that is is UNIQUE from the rest of the book in some way. It might be a single time jump ...or some other factor.
     
  23. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    If it's better without it, fair enough. Remove it AFTER reading it. Again, I'm not defending substandard Prologues. But I'm also not the least bit interested in courting—or trying to fool—an agent who says that under no circumstances should you send her a Prologue. Sorry.

    If I was that desperate to make a living as a writer selling stuff written to order, I'd become a journalist and work for a paper, or sell freelance work based on requests. As a novelist I will write what I want, the way I want, and look for representation from somebody who will give what I've written a fair chance.
     
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  24. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    See this just brings me back to arbitrary. Who decides what must or must not be named a prologue? Who decides what's unique enough? My chapter 1 is a prologue because it mentions monkeys and no other chapter does so it's unique. Bizarrre.

    Ps sorry for typos tonight I am.rubbish on phone
     
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  25. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    No, you may not wish to write the most salable work. But then you shouldn't be approaching the big publishers, at least (maybe some niche publishers). The big publishers are all about a money making operation. To get a book published by them, you've got to get it accepted by an editor, who has to sell it to other people at the publisher, including the marketing team. It's a whole process based around the bottom line. They may want you to take out a prologue. They may want you to tweak it so they can market the book within a certain genre. And so on. If you want to publish with those publishers, that's the reality. If you're publishing it yourself, then agents and editors be damned!
     
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