Today, the anniversary of the victory of the Islamic Revolution in Iran

Discussion in 'Debate Room' started by Mans, Feb 11, 2019.

  1. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    You realize you're not making things better with your posts, right?

    You are confirming that women's rights are drastically less than men's. This is a problem.
     
  2. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    Nuns choose to wear their habits (and the vast, vast majority of nuns don't wear a full habit anymore. There is no legislation making it illegal for them to NOT wear their habits, or forcing non-nuns to wear them.

    I assume that men should also consult with their wives before travelling to a foreign country? Is, there, then, a law requiring the women to consent before the men can get passports?

    How do single women deal with all this? Do they have to get their fathers' consent? What if the father is dead or unavailable?
     
  3. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    I agree that he shouldn't be insulted, but... disagreed with? It seems fair to disagree with him...
     
  4. Earp

    Earp Contributor Contributor

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    Read back through the thread. Not just disagreement, but a lot of anger there. Maybe we should have just read @Mans' OP and moved on.
     
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  5. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Is it possible that if we were talking about a country where men needed women's consent to work or travel, you might feel fractionally different?

    Maybe not, but I'm wondering.
     
  6. Earp

    Earp Contributor Contributor

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    I don't think so, no. Those of us in the West don't have any experience living in a theocracy, and can't really understand the pressures involved. My main beef here is the treatment of the OP in this thread, and to be honest, it was you I was thinking of when I mentioned the anger. You aren't going to change @Mans' opinion about his country, and he isn't going to change yours or mine. I wouldn't expect (or accept) a lot of crap from any Native American forum members if I posted something about celebrating Columbus Day. It's just my opinion, and I don't need to be schooled. To quote Dr. Lilith Crane speaking to Helen in an episode of Wings, "It is permissible to have an unexpressed thought.".
     
  7. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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  8. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    But the Iranian women who are protesting, and being jailed, do probably understand those things.

    No, we're not going to change each others' minds, but I'm not trying to change Mans' mind. I'm just declining to smile approvingly at human rights violations.

    Returning to add:

    Why on earth wouldn't you expect it?
     
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  9. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    That goes both ways, though, right?

    Once a thought IS expressed others may choose to respond back?
     
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  10. Earp

    Earp Contributor Contributor

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    That's where we differ, I guess. I wouldn't equate deciding not to engage and 'smiling approvingly'.

    Why wouldn't I expect blowback from the Native Americans? Take a look at what the Donald Trump thread has become: a nearly six page battle of walls of text about abortion, of all things, all of which constitutes a steaming pile of sophistry that convinces no one and resolves nothing. Surely the people in that thread and those similar can find more important things to do.
     
  11. Earp

    Earp Contributor Contributor

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    Sure, but @Mans didn't pop up and say that Iran's treatment of women is the way it should be here or anywhere else but his country. He just posted about the anniversary of Iran's overthrow of the Shah. I'll admit he has posted some things that are demonstrably not true, but it may be the way he sees them, and might be the way I or you might see them if we had been born into a Muslim theocracy.

    ETA: There's also the language thing to consider. @Mans' English is very good (better than my Farsi!), but it isn't perfect. When he said that women are 'asked' by the government to avoid sporting events, he may have been using the word the way we would speak of a police officer 'asking' for our drivers license and registration.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019
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  12. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Eh. If I, let’s say, posted on January 22nd in celebration of the Roe v. Wade decision, I would be foolish to expect that thread to remain uncontroversial and upbeat. That’s reality.
     
  13. Mans

    Mans Contributor Contributor

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    Hi Earp

    The news about 'wasting the rights of women in Iran' are untrue. I hope you don't believe is such the wrong or manipulated news.

    If you even refer to the pictures that I sent, you will realize the reality.
     
  14. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    The pictures are actually a bit strange... I see the picture of the women at http://www.eslamabadkhabar.ir/news/294298/شور-و-هیجان-انقلاب-سراسر-کشور-را-فراگرفت-مردم-بازهم-پای-انقلاب-ایستادند-تصاویر-و-حاشیه, (and other similar sites) along with text saying they're celebrating the 37th anniversary of the revolution, and: "Along with the onset of the 22nd Bahman march around the country, people have always been at the scene of Semnan, including young and old, females and females, and slapping the slogans of "Death to America," and "Death to Israel," proving their authority to the world." (It's translated through Google, so who knows how accurate it is, but the parts in quotes certainly stand out...)

    And now we're seeing the photo here, apparently showing us evidence of women celebrating the 40th anniversary?

    When I look at the photos of the men, I see that the first one is apparently from 2015... http://www.choghadaknews.ir/2015/02/12/عکس-نمایباز-از-جمعیت-راهپیمایان-در-ته/
    The second photo seems to be from 2017 (if I've translated the Iranian year correctly?)... https://www.mcls.gov.ir/fa/album/4320/22-بهمن-96

    etc.

    ETA: The photo of the young man with the baby is more recent, but seems to have been published on January 19, 2019, western dating, which is more recent, but still not clearly associated with a celebration of the Revolution...

    The point is... I don't doubt that some people were celebrating the Iranian revolution. But in terms of using the pictures you sent to realize the reality... it doesn't work that way. The context of photos is really important in order to understand them, and just looking at pictures without context isn't really proof of anything.

    I could show a picture of a happy Native celebration in Canada and say it's proof that we're treating our First Nations properly, but... that is not the case.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2019
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  15. Mans

    Mans Contributor Contributor

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    As some nuns choose the veil optionally, also the group of Iranian women who use veil, choose it as a personal choice. As I told before, wearing this type of clothe is not obligatory for Iranian women.


    Women are flower, not champion. Men have a stronger body, more physical ability and enough resistance for defense. A man can travel in a desert or in a privacy place solely, but there is some limitation for a women due to her fine nature.

    Unmarried women who their responsibility is with their families, especially those who reach not legal age should inform their families. Usually, families haven't any disagreement with the necessary traveling.

    Married women who divorced and their responsibility is with themselves are independent for traveling.

    Of course based on "Iranian national security commission" all women who want to travel to oversea solely, for receiving passport, they must have a consent testimonial from their families or husbands (this is a territorial security rule not a religious thing).
     
  16. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    Women in Iran aren't required to wear the hijab? I mean, nuns don't wear a full veil, either, so I don't think equating a habit with a veil makes sense. And as I understand it, the hijab is legally required of Iranian women.




    I think you need to look at the difference between what you believe and what is reality. Obviously I need to do that, too... we all do. But when your beliefs involve broad generalities that cover all women and all men, I think it's pretty easy to see that your black-and-white beliefs don't match the many shades of grey in reality.

    To begin, I'm not sure what physical strength has to do with getting a passport - do you require elderly or infirm men to get their daughters' consent before they get a passport, just because the daughters are physically stronger than the fathers?

    Alternatively, if you weren't talking about international travel but more about spending time in stadiums or other public places, again, an argument based on physical strength cannot ignore the many extremely strong women and the many extremely weak men. If there's an actual requirement of physical fitness in order to enter a stadium, then anyone who meets the standard should be allowed entrance (including the women) and anyone who doesn't meet the standard should be barred (including the men).

    Do men also need testimonials from their families or husbands as a matter of territorial security? If not, can you explain why women are a higher risk to territorial security than men?
     
  17. Nariac

    Nariac Contributor Contributor

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    I wish this hadn't turned out the way I knew it would, but ... it has.
     
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  18. Mans

    Mans Contributor Contributor

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    What's the difference, this celebration is held every year. I chose the pictures that seem to be more vivid and give the readers here a better sense.


    These are two picture of this year. The weather was rainy in most of the cities of Iran.


    [​IMG]





    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2019
  19. Mans

    Mans Contributor Contributor

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    ByView :)

    Regarding to your last post, I explained what was necessary.
     
  20. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    The difference is that your pictures weren't of the event you claimed they were. Which isn't a big deal - as you said, it rained this year, so the photos weren't as good. But if you're telling other posters to refer to the photos as evidence of what you're saying, I think you need to recognize that the photos are NOT great evidence.

    And your broad statements of opinion presented as fact also aren't great evidence. Which leaves us with no real evidence for your claims.

    And if you're presenting your claims as your opinion, that's one thing. But when you're presenting them as fact, and when the fact doesn't match our perceptions... I think it's reasonable for us to expect you to be able to provide evidence, or to rephrase your statements to make it clear they're opinions.
     
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  21. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    I wish the same, and I knew the same, and... what's to be done?
     
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  22. big soft moose

    big soft moose The Moderating Moose Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    People who live in countries lack in in individual freedom are also often 'required' to celebrate things that their leaders feel should be celebrated (North Korea is an excellent example of this but it isn't entirely beyond the realm of possibility for Iran)… not doing so would be seen as disloyal and carry penalties. Ergo the photos aren't evidence of the peoples spontaneous love of the revolution anyway.

    Of course this also applies to citizen posting on the net - it would be unwise for anyone living in a theocracy to post anything critical of their country on to a forum where it might be seen by the powers that be in their country
     
  23. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    But you've already agreed that it's true. That women can't freely travel without a male's permission, that women can't work if their husband forbid it, that women can't enter sports stadiums. You seem to be claiming that they're not legally required to cover their hair, but I assume that that's a language issue; I doubt that you would agree that women can legally go out with their heads completely uncovered by anything.

    These are rights that are denied to women. The fact that you APPROVE of denying those rights to women does not change the fact that these are rights denied to women.
     
  24. Mans

    Mans Contributor Contributor

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    ChikenFreak

    Previously, Christian women covered their hair with kerchief, then a culture came in the field and changed it into the female hat, and after the years, the hat was taken off from the head of Christian women as well and this change was interpreted to modernism!

    Man advanced in discovering of science, while the nature and character of man is the same and is unchangeable.

    This reformation even reached the church and some of the nuns. In recent decades the reformation forced them to go out from the traditional religious covers. Now, some of the nuns or priestess appear in the society without the religious cover.

    Nonetheless, many nuns and priestesses refused to put off their traditional covers. They still believe, Jesus and her innocent mother were holly characters and they should go in their presence with a worthy hijab.

    As you see, covering the hair and body of a woman is even a worthy thing in Christianity. Also Islam doesn't offer to the Muslim women to wear veil obligatory, but it order the women to use an optional and proper clothe with a cover for their hairs.

    The Islamic statements emphasize on this least of cover for Muslim women and it is not refutable. So based on God enlightening, the boundless liberty that damages human and humanity doesn't exist in the origin Islam in Iran.
     
  25. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    I think this may be the crux of the disagreement.

    (Although the part where "the nature and character of man is the same and is unchangeable" could also probably use some unpacking. But it'll have to be done by someone with more patience than I.)
     

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