Tragedy in Connecticut...

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by JJ_Maxx, Dec 14, 2012.

  1. GoldenGhost

    GoldenGhost Senior Member

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    Though there have been a ton of tragic events happening over the last year, the unfortunate reality is they may never cease, and that people die every day.

    Personally, as a result of the events in CT, I've become energized, and I have gleamed something positive out of the situation. It may have come late, but better late then never.

    I've never felt such a stronger call to arms.

    You see, for me, I may never get a chance to defend my country, or put myself in harms way, or become a politician and help enact laws and things I believe to be just, or stand up for my beliefs in a ralley, or do something major that could accelerate change in some way on some grand scale.

    I'm an average person. And I have to look at what I have to work with. I have things I can do in my immediate life, which starts with how I treat family members and my friends, and then the actions transcend that and apply to strangers.

    But most importantly, I have my pen and my words and the page and my characters and my heart.

    "The books are to remind us what asses and fools we are." -Ray Bradbury

    Writers are the invisible agents of change.

    I'm not here to stuff an agenda down anyone's throats.

    But I do believe I am here to show the world what they may or may not want to see.

    And maybe, just maybe, it might help change the way people live.
     
  2. Selbbin

    Selbbin The Moderating Cat Staff Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    I'm struggling with my mixed reactions to the news of this particular tragedy. Clearly it is a reprehensible act and a terrible, senseless waste of life. And while everyone outraged by this event is justified in being so, it saddens me that the outrage and anger is only displayed in this way when rare acts of violence and death occur. On the news I saw tributes being placed in Rio, flowers in memory of the beautiful lives taken.... tributes in a city where street kids are gunned down by off-duty police 'death squads', shopkeepers, gangsters, because they are a pest. I don't mean to get political, but this strange contradiction of values has been plaguing me.
     
  3. GazingAbyss

    GazingAbyss Member

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    Unfortunately, that's not necessarily the case. Young adulthood tends to be the point at which mental illnesses set in (the other time is childhood, but that's much rarer) and the shooter was in his early twenties. Although we'll never know for sure if there were warning signs, as the human brain has this habit of selectively editing memories to match your present knowledge, it wasn't too likely. Hell, the first outward sign of a problem is violence in so many cases like this...

    I think one of the things that's needed is some de-stigmatization of mental illness. If being thought of as crazy wasn't seen as something shameful, people might ask for help before malfunctioning brain chemistry makes them think picking up a gun is the only option. Granted, a few still wouldn't recognize that anything was wrong with themselves and blame the world, but who knows for sure what will help until we try?
     
  4. psychotick

    psychotick Contributor Contributor

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    Hi Gazing,

    I wasn't speaking purely of psychiatric illnesses but they'll do as a sort of guide. There may be exceptions but in almost all cases where someone sufferes from a severe psychiatric illness and it then results in a tragedy, violence, murder or suicide, there are signs.

    I mean the most common people suffering from recognised psychiatric disorders who go down this road are schizophrenics, and schizophrenia usually starts in the teenage years. There are a lot of warning signs for this condition and I'm not just talking about the voices and the delusions. Altered thinking is one of the most diagnostically useful. Then I suppose there are sociopaths, and the cause of that may start anywhere in early childhood, but the signs are obvious through out life, essentially an obvious lack of empathy. If kids start torturing animals you know you have a problem. Depression and mania in its various forms don't usually result in mass killings, but suicides are common enough, and again there are signs. People can recognise severe mood swings quite easily.

    It's a question of recognising them and doing something about them. And yes I agree removing the stigma of mental illness is vital to better mental healthcare.

    The only major psychiatric condition I can think of where there may be no warning is the psychotic break, and in these cases we're not looking for warning signs in the person who suffers the event, but in the life around them, because these things usually come out of somewhere, i.e. major traumatic events. I often suspect that severe bullying may be such a cause in some.

    At this stage we don't seem to know a lot about the shooter's mental state, personality disorder seems to be the term being thrown about, but what that means is anyone's guess. My guess is that they're using it to mean odd, quiet and withdrawn but that they don't know that he had any recognised psychiatric condition. So if he had one it wasn't recognised or diagnosed.

    Having said that, family background is the other option I would think needs to be looked at. My guess would be that since the mother had purchased the guns in fear of some apocalypse type scenario, that there is some sort of paranoid, conspiracy vibe running through the family. The father is absent which means that the shooter grew up without a strong male role model, another well identified factor involved in the raising of male children with antisocial tendencies. And the brother also hadn't seen him in two or three years, another tell tale sign of a family dynamic that's strained. Then if he had had close friends, self esteem issues could also have played a role, and they should have been noticed.

    Note that I am not saying that any of these factors will cause a child to grow up into a mass murderer, or that all children who grow up in these situations do go on to do harm to others. I am only pointing out that they are all well recognised factors associated with children who do grow up to become criminals or worse. Correlation not causation.

    In this case we may never know quite what motivated this attack since the shooter is dead and it seemed that no one really knew him. But even so we can still say that there were signs of a troubled home life. And if he did have a recognised psychiatric illness it wasn't spotted, but probably should have been.

    Cheers, Greg.
     
  5. GazingAbyss

    GazingAbyss Member

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    I stand corrected. Although if a major sign is altered thinking, there is the problem that that sort of thing might not get expressed externally for quite some time, especially since, as you noted, Lanza didn't seem to be very close to anyone. I'm not sure what the solution is in that case though... I can't think of a reliable way to spot strange thought patterns in someone who doesn't trust anyone enough to open up and admit them. Besides greater access to psychiatric services I suppose, but that's just leading the horse to water.

    The most horrific problems never have obvious solutions in real life... Movies have spoiled me.
     
  6. BritInFrance

    BritInFrance Active Member

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    Can I just say that most people with schizophrenia are not a danger to others. Most are much more likely to self harm or kill themselves, than they ever are of hurting someone else. Mental illness is stigmatized as it is and this leads to people not seeking help.

    Whenever someone with a mental health problem kills someone else there is an uproar - something should have been done (a psychiatrist in France has just been given a one year suspended sentence for Manslaughter because one of his patients killed someone).

    Sometimes things can be prevented, but it is easy to judge in hindsight and say someone should have spotted something and done something. When something happens like this we all want to blame someone. It is particularly difficult if the person who committed the crime is dead - then we feel the need to look for someone else to blame.
     
  7. madhoca

    madhoca Contributor Contributor

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    Just as another tangent on this topic, I have been very humbled and moved by the reports of how those teachers acted.

    When it comes to a mad killer shooting up the place, a little self-preservation button can easily activate in us. I remember reading a book years ago by Monica Dickens: a secretary daydreams about situations where she could be heroic and save her boss, a charismatic doctor, from some kind of threat, so he would fall for her. At the end of course, someone bursts in and shoots the doctor and all she does is start screaming.

    These teachers were all quite selfless in considering their duty to their little pupils and really did an amazing job at keeping them quiet and calm. We should remember that kind of heroism when we look for "heroes" for our stories.

    Also, as a teacher, I've had several quite weird, goth, self-harming, loner-geeky etc type students. Some got slightly better as they got used to university life and matured more, others got worse, a few dropped out, one committed suicide, another shot a fellow student--his only friend (they were not at the uni at the time). The most normal-seeming was actually the one that committed murder. I'm just saying that signs are not all that easy to read and you can't lock up every weird youngster (although latest reports seem to indicate he really was seriously sick).
     
  8. psychotick

    psychotick Contributor Contributor

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    Hi Brit,

    You're correct and I agree completely. Most people with mental illness do not commit crimes of any sort or act immorally, and I'm sorry for not stating that clearly. And again I agree, we need to work on reducing the stigma of mental illness. It is in the end an illness like any other.

    Cheers, Greg.
     
  9. GazingAbyss

    GazingAbyss Member

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    As well, those with mental illness are more likely than average to be the victims of crimes.

    Check, half-check, no, and check... Add teacher's pet and your list of traits basically describes me in high school. And I didn't 'get better', that's my personality. Although your anecdote concerns some extreme cases, the vast majority of people who don't fit in are just quirky.
     
  10. psychotick

    psychotick Contributor Contributor

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    Hi Madhoca,

    Just as an aside to your last line of your last post - it's not about locking them up. It's about getting them the help that they need to live good, well fulfilled lives.

    Cheers, Greg.
     
  11. madhoca

    madhoca Contributor Contributor

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    Oh, yes--sorry, I didn't mean to give the impression that was a solution, or that I thought people with more insight, like you, believed was an answer. It's just that you read and hear others sounding off over the past week, many appear to think removal from society is what's necessary. Also, by "better" I guess I meant happier around people--some kids are perfectly okay with their own company but interact comfortably as well, but others obviously can't connect at all and are bothered and/or withdrawn all the time.
     
  12. philaz

    philaz New Member

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    People with mental illnesses are unpredictable. They don't commit crimes until they do.
     
  13. mammamaia

    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

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    and that's the sad, inescapable bottom line!
     
  14. johann77

    johann77 Member

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    Theiy're taking the rifles off the shelf of gun dealers.
     
  15. psychotick

    psychotick Contributor Contributor

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    Hi,

    All people are unpredictable. And they also don't commit crimes until they do. People with mental illnesses need help and support. But so do people in bad situations. Whether that's an abusive home life, single parent homes, poverty, bullying, social isolation, familiarity with crime etc, etc. Not all children of criminals grow up to commit crimes. Not all bullied children grow up to bully others.

    These things are all just correlates with poor life outcomes. If we want to stop the problems of violence, criminality and poor life outcomes we have to look at all of these issues and many others, on a level playing field, and start addressing them all. After all, I forget his name, but one of the most prolific murderers currently in jail that I've heard of, can't remember his name, was actually a mob hitman who had no mental illness at all. He was actually happily married and had good kids. Swears he loves them.

    Cheers, Greg.
     
  16. mammamaia

    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

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    the NRA has now been heard from...

    their solution?... local volunteer [= unpaid!] NRA-trained armed guards at every single school and less violence in entertainment venues... not a single word about the easy access to automatic weapons, or lack of background checks to purchase guns at gun shows... not a single word about 100-bullet clips...

    oh, and he advocated having everyone in the country who suffers from any mental illness listed in a national data base...

    does that sound like a certain eurpean country back in the late '30s to anyone but me?... what next will the NRA call for?... concentration camps for the 'possibly may become dangerous mentally ill' manned by NRA members posted in the guard towers armed with AR-15s that are equipped with 100 ct clips?

    in other words, more guns will supposedly = fewer killed with guns... that = insanity to me!
     
  17. Hwaigon

    Hwaigon Senior Member

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    Second to the right, and straight on till morning.
    So, you come up to the nearest weird-looking teenager and start investigating him whether or not his family background
    is ok or whether or not he has outbursts of anger and want to harm sb ? Even with signs you can do very little and you don't
    know what the kid's been bottling up in him and where's the last fronteer of his mind's sobriety. Worse still, the teenager won't tell
    you anything as long as you don't get to their comfort zone, which might be slippery being a teacher because of establishing too close
    a connection.
     
  18. Selbbin

    Selbbin The Moderating Cat Staff Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    Don't you know that driving faster all the time, and thus spending less time on the roads, will mean less accidents?

    the NRA cares about one thing above all else, their own wants and desires.
     
  19. thirdwind

    thirdwind Member Contest Administrator Reviewer Contributor

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    I was so disappointed when I heard him say this. If every mentally ill person had to be listed in a database, I think they would be less likely to seek professional help, and we'd have a huge problem on our hands.
     
  20. mammamaia

    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

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    cog/dante...

    sorry if i went against the thread rules with my post... please feel free to delete my comments if they are not allowed and accept my apology for not having seen your posts about the gun debate being off limits... i just got a very nasty pm from one of the posters here, or i would not have been aware of my error...

    maybe i should thank him for his rude comments, since he alerted me to my goof... :rolleyes:

    love and hugs [despite that nasty pm-er telling me to 'save your love and hugs for your dogs'], maia
     
  21. psychotick

    psychotick Contributor Contributor

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    Hi,

    Gosh darn it, how could I have been so wrong for so long? Of course the answer is more guns. Just like speeding will reduce the road toll. More drinking will of course solve alcoholism. Additional junk food outlets will naturally cure the obesity problem and diabetes.

    It's so obvious! I want to join the NRA!!!

    Oh, it may just be a tiny niggle in my not yet completely clear thinking. But if I had a kid and was sending him off to school where some unpaid, heavily armed NRA member was sitting at the front gate, I'd probably be thinking about another school pretty darn quickly.

    (To the mods, I know this may be sailing a little too close to the wind but the PM sent to Mamma's left me reeling and I felt the need to respond. Please delete if innappropriate.)

    Cheers, Greg.
     
  22. Cogito

    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

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    Another reminder to keep gun debates out of this thread. Posts removed.

    Everyone's emotions are running high, and I realize people feel strongly on both sides of this issue. But gun issues are highly inflammatory, and all that will be accomplished by bringing it to WF will be hard feelings and angry, hurtful words.

    I will leave the thread open for now, because many members are still trying to cope with this tragedy. The wounds are still fresh. Let's try to show compassion instead of finger-pointing. Leave that to the filthy politicians.
     
  23. Selbbin

    Selbbin The Moderating Cat Staff Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    Doesn't that go for everyone?

    The most dangerous mistake society can make is to bury their head in the sand and assume that you must have a mentral illness to be capable of doing something like this. The real sad truth is that you don't, and that calculated, sane, and clear-headed individuals have done the same andf worse. The catch 22 bull that doing something like this automatically means that the person must have been crazy is a copout that people use because they can't understand intention and motivation, and must find some kind of reasoning in order to deal with it.

    People do bad things, and the only way to rid the world of people doing bad things completely, is for everyone simply not to do them.
     
  24. JJ_Maxx

    JJ_Maxx Banned

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    Yeah, it's natural for us to look for a reason, to look for understanding. But these things just happen. We have BILLIONS if people in the world and statistically, you will always have people who do evil things. Whether it be with a gun in Connecticut, a bomb in Oklahoma City, a plane in New York or a knife in China. It's not the weapon, it's the people. Our best weapon to combat this is hope and love to everyone.
     
  25. Cogito

    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

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    There will never be a perfect world. No matter what measures you take to prevent such tragedies, someone will slip through the cracks and do the unthinkable. Even if you fortify and legislate, and pile on layers of vigilance, eventually complacence will set in and open new cracks.

    I have a theory. This was a man who, for whatever reason, wanted to be noticed, and wanted to have a profound impact. So he chose a vulnerable target that was certain to produce a great deal of public agony. Mental illness is peripherally relevant, but we cannot make a crime of not being well-adjusted, nor can we poke into people's brains to figure out who is merely different, and who is truly dangerous. And he chose a means of violence that was within his grasp; it could have as easily been firebombs.

    We should be outraged, and we should feel pain. It was a horrific act, as it was intended to be, by a coward who made sure he would never have to answer for it. But we are deluding ourselves if we believe such actions are ultimately preventable.
     

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