Unsettling "Exotic" Character Descriptons

Discussion in 'Character Development' started by NoGoodNobu, Sep 28, 2016.

  1. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    I've just realised that in 53k words ive not mentioned my female MCs breasts at all ... admittedly i described her early on has having 'a knock out figure and a mane of blonde hair as dirty as her laugh' so its doubtful that the femi nazis will be queing up to congratualate me (particularly as ive got her giving a blow job , interupted by rocket fire, in the first chapter , and sleeping with the male MC in chpt 6)
     
  2. KaTrian

    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Contributor

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    They can imagine whatever they think is a knock-out figure, so... :p

    There's a lesbian character in my (and T.Trian's) WIP who thinks and describes boobs more than the guys, I think. :D
     
  3. Cave Troll

    Cave Troll It's Coffee O'clock everywhere. Contributor

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    Thanks @Wreybies .

    To be honest I think you explained things much better than the blog post did.
    And after skimming through the wiki on Sector General, I don't see what is
    so great about the series as a whole. Then again I have never heard about it
    until you made mention of it. Seems as though my taste in science fiction
    takes me in a different direction. After reading the synopsis for the entire
    thing it seems like a confused wannabe Star Trek.
    (Also the space station looks like a giant metal cake.):p

    So thanks again, and also for explaining things on the topic. :)
     
  4. Catrin Lewis

    Catrin Lewis Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023 Community Volunteer

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    @NoGoodNobu, far be it from me to underestimate the impact of others' experiences and sensibilities. And the way things are going these days, it's most likely rank heresy to differ with you on this matter. Off to the stake with her!

    But you've said you welcome other opinions, so I'll venture, regardless.

    I, too, am disappointed that everyone on these forums is not familiar with Charlotte Bronte's masterwork. I can't count the number of times I've read and reread Jane Eyre, beginning with the Illustrated Classics graphic novel version when I was in third grade. I have a vivid memory of the scene you describe and, recalling it, can feel yet again Jane's heartsick attempt to trample down her love for Mr. Rochester by holding before herself her own plainness in contrast to Blanche Ingram's reputed beauty.

    I think it's possible to entertain another view of this passage and others like it. Is it really necessary to place Jane's use of the words "oriental" and "Grecian" (the use of the POV character, mind you, with all her experiences and sensibilities!) on a vile sliding scale into sexual fetishism? I say it is not.

    "Grecian" is not the same as "Greek." Jane was not comparing Blanche's neck and bust to that of some woman she might see if she were to travel down to Athens in her own day. She's referring to Classical Antiquity, to the statues of the goddesses she has seen in the books she devours. And the culture and art of ancient Greece is not--- I repeat, is not, "foreign and exotic" to Western civilization. On the contrary, it is foundational to it. It is part of us, it is ours. So if Bronte has her heroine surmise that her rival must possess "Grecian" beauty, it should evoke all that richness of history and culture, and, I gently suggest, calls for an adjustment in our own thinking should it do otherwise.

    You mention the literary Orientalism of Bronte's day. Are you suggesting this was an evil movement, that should have been condemned by all right-thinking people? Wasn't it rather the beginning of East and West getting to know one another? For Jane to describe Miss Ingram's eye as "oriental" creates a link between that culture and her own. She can use that term because it is not utterly alien. Her reading has expanded her horizons, and she knows that beauty is not restricted to her own people, place, and time.

    What you cite in Jane Eyre is not the same as the verbal vomitings of leches who say things like, "I like them ________ chicks. They all got big __________." That kind of behavior would be wrong and disgusting with no mention of ethnic appearance at all. Even at that, I think it would be dangerous to establish a restriction, moral or legal, against writing characters who talk that way on the grounds that some readers might be upset. Maybe the author's purpose is to upset the reader at that point, so he or she will understand how reprehensible that character is and be eager to see him get his just desserts. Holding that such comparisons must never be drawn is the same as saying we should never use crude or foul language in our writing, because many people are offended by it.

    And if the author him/herself seems to be promoting such views? If it's really bad, throw the book across the room and let people know in the reviews on Goodreads and Amazon.

    PS: I may have a strike against me, as my avatar shows a young woman in ancient Middle Eastern costume. A hundred years ago, when they were in high school, my grandfather found my grandmother beautiful and chose to draw her as Rebekah at the well. But as with Jane Eyre's likening Blanche Ingram to a Greek goddess, that Biblical story is part of Western culture. In more ways than one, both my grandfather and I stand in that heritage, though we don't have a drop of Hebrew blood. I'd hate to lose that, out of fear.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2016
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  5. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    The early books are better than the latter ones, and only on that one cover is the hospital depicted as a demented wedding cake. ;) What was great about the series as a whole (especially at the beginning) was the way he used the premiss to carefully consider the why of an alien's physiology. It was something that has always stuck with me, that an alien should have a reason for being the way it is that reflects some kind of logical evolutionary chain of events. Some creatures he described were pretty off the wall and unlikely (like a donut shaped creature that had to perpetually roll like a tire because this was how its circulatory system functioned), but most things made a good deal of well considered sense.

    Also, it predates Star Trek by a few years. ;)
     
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  6. Robert Musil

    Robert Musil Comparativist Contributor

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    People up-thread were asking for examples, if it's not too late to toss one in, the first thing I thought of reading the OP was James S.A. Corey's otherwise-excellent The Expanse series. It's intended to be kind of pulpy, but even so all the ink they (it's written by two guys, J.S.A. Corey is their pen name) spill describing the various exotic traits of their always-ravishingly-beautiful female protagonists was a little off-putting.
     
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  7. Cave Troll

    Cave Troll It's Coffee O'clock everywhere. Contributor

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    @Robert Musil and it things like that that brand all men as pigs.
    Quite unfair to use the minority to judge the majority.
     
  8. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    I sometimes wonder if its the majority who are pigs tbh ( I'm a bloke btw) ... the way a number of my male colleagues and contacts talk about women as though they are pieces of meat really offends me, I was raised to be a gentleman and to treat women with courtesy and respect but I suspect I may be in the minority

    (this doesnt mean that I may not think a number of bad things on meeting an attractive woman , i'm as red blooded as the next guy , but I keep those thoughts to myself and look her in the eye , and treat her as a person, rather than looking her lecherously up and down and treating her as an accessory to a shaky ego)
     
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  9. Cave Troll

    Cave Troll It's Coffee O'clock everywhere. Contributor

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    @big soft moose To be fair as long as a gentleman treats her as a person, though we all fall prey to our base desires in thought.
    As long as we don't let them turn us into the swine that sees a pound of flesh to be had for selfish pleasures. :)
     
  10. peachalulu

    peachalulu Member Reviewer Contributor

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    Meh. I lived in a very touristy town growing up - Asian tourists flooded the area every summer and they were as exotic
    to us and we were to them. I must have posed for dozens of tourists photos with my friends. Somewhere on forgotten slide shows there I am - the redheaded Canadian girl - a true exotic in China. Lol. I supposed if my family had traveled to China there would be pictures of Asian children on our slides.

    It's human nature to find beauty in something distant and rare. To use a minority's traits or a different race's traits is basically to give the character a feeling of rareness.
    Done right it can add a special something to the story. I recall Colleen McCullough's very lengthy description of Tim ( in the book Tim ) comparing him to a greek statute. But the comparison is used for effect as the heroine discovers the young man is actually mentally challenged. As a lover of art and beauty she at first finds Tim's great beauty to be a tragic waste.

    At the worst I suppose some descriptions can be/ and are sloppy - the hunk with the Grecian curls, the roman nose, the Spanish rump. A cultural collage for the best
    of the best. Usually I find this happens when the author really isn't that comfortable with descriptions in general and grabs for easy fixes. A bad habit
    they've picked up from other stories/authors. Like when I was reading bodice rippers and have seen 1001 ways to describe blue eyes. Blue as the storm-tossed sea, blue as the sapphire in my dagger, blue as a cloudless sky, blah, blah, blah. An easy fix is to make your character less perfect. Less unusual.
    But beauty is in the eye of the beholder so it's more a fault of the author making the mc focus on such things (without a darn good reason) than on the bigger issues.

    It could be you're more sensitive because of your background. When I was younger I hated the ickiness of authors pairing up redheads. Being a redhead myself (well my hair has actually gotten more auburn) and having experienced that in school - look! a redhead he's perfect for you - I found it annoying.
     
  11. matwoolf

    matwoolf Banned Contributor

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    The hunk with the Grecian curls, the roman nose, the Spanish rump, English teeth and feet, American hands, and a Russian accent, was Jewish, born in Latvia to Ghanaian parents, and enslaved by Phoenicians, he lived in Argentina, detested foreigners for some reason nobody could fathom.
     
  12. Cave Troll

    Cave Troll It's Coffee O'clock everywhere. Contributor

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    @matwoolf Is that your adult version of Build a Bear Workshop? :supergrin:
     
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  13. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    American hands.... Would that I could picture the image in your mind's eye. ;)
     
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  14. Iain Sparrow

    Iain Sparrow Banned Contributor

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    I think that strays into gender role-playing.
    You should treat everyone with courtesy and respect, without considering their sex. Some women are not at all impressed by chivalrous or gentlemanly behavior, they find it patronizing and old fashioned.
    That's why I am no gentleman.
     
  15. Catrin Lewis

    Catrin Lewis Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023 Community Volunteer

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    English teeth? Heaven forfend, not English teeth. Not unless you like a certain casual arrangement in the dentistry department.
     
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  16. Catrin Lewis

    Catrin Lewis Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023 Community Volunteer

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    Goes "Huh?"
     
  17. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    straying off topic a bit , butwhen i say gentelmanly and corteous i'm not talking about opening doors and giving up your seat on the tube (although i do if it seems appropriate) I'm reffering to not buying into a lad mags culture where the assumption is that all women are 'well up up for it' and that its appropriate to sit arround scoring them out of ten for tits, assd, legs, and 'shaggability' ( I once fired a contractor who's team were doing exactly that about my female interns)
     
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  18. KaTrian

    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Contributor

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    Have you heard how straight women talk about men? :D

    No but seriously, I know what you mean. There's a time and place for lad talk / girl talk, but the workplace isn't one.
     
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  19. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    I like you! :D that goes a lot deeper into your character as opposed to simple gestures. Holding or not holding doors - it doesn't matter as much. Although it is certainly very nice when someone does it. I do find there's a particular charm about men who do this - the other day a new friend gave me a lift home and her husband got out of the car, opened the door for me, and offered me his hand to help me out (he's Hungarian). Now that gave me an incredibly good impression! I don't think less of a man who doesn't do this - I don't expect it, it's not exactly part of British culture. In fact, chivalry is all but dead in the UK, frankly. But I certainly think more of a man who goes that step further - it tells me he's thoughtful and attentive and goes out of his way to be nice. Unfortunately though gestures like this are usually the product of strong gender roles and norms and I'm not as into that. (I have no idea if that guy is into gender roles - met him just once)

    Now if only we could reach that happy balance of both chivalry and equality :D
     
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  20. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    Well, I'm not sure. Now of course I do not believe any text should be banned or edited to suit contemporary tastes, no. So if the book contains such racial stereotypes and got published, well so be it. And yes it is insightful as to how people at the time viewed various ethnicity and cultures. However, I'm not sure what you mean by "preserve". Simply that published texts should not be altered to suit contemporary tastes (agreed), or that people should just continue to write as they have before, eg continue to use racial stereotypes in their works? Because if the latter, then definitely no, I think. Once we are aware of what we're doing, if we find that we're using racial stereotypes that's not for the sake of a particular story and genre we might be attempting, then we should stop and do something about it!

    Anyway I think I get what you mean - that you're against the use of racial stereotypes to depict beauty. Eg. describing a Chinese character as someone with wide-set eyes would be fine, but describing a random non-Chinese character as reminiscent of a Chinese princess would irk you.

    Or I remember in Khaled Hoseinni's Kite Runner, at one point an Afghan woman's nose is described as a softly curving hook, which the narrator character finds very attractive - that would be fine, because while the nose is probably typical of Middle Asian noses, it is a particular feature of that female character's face that the narrator character genuinely finds lovely. Whereas had the description read like a typical description of an Asian face that fails to identify the uniqueness of that particular character, then it would be wrong, because then the author would just be relying on stereotypes to convey beauty, once again.

    Am I right?

    I think what you spotted is incredibly insightful - it is also one of those things where the line is very, very fine and depends entirely on tone and how you approached the subject. It's almost like: describing ethnic physical qualities is fine, but how you use those qualities and when would make it acceptable or unacceptable. Such is how it is when it comes to matters of race really. In real life, is it wrong to hire a white person over a black person? Of course not. But depending on why that choice was made, it could be very very wrong. (or vice versa)
     
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  21. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    It's probably like most other choices we make while writing - we should be sure we're actually making the choice, not just throwing words on the page.

    I can see reasons why someone might deliberately choose to include text that isn't reflective of the highest levels of equity and sensitivity. But too often I get the impression that the insensitive aspects are included without awareness or thought, and I think that's what I would be most likely to object to.
     
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  22. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    I did hear "American expressions" in a song, which I liked.
     
  23. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    Yes, but, as an American - and in tune with the original intent of this thread - "American hands" are just hands to me in the same way that to an Asian, Asian eyes are just eyes. I guess my comment there was one about how confusing it can be when one is the object of ethnic or racial fetish and it's hard to see what is being seen from the outside. Matt is a Brit, and I have my own set of fetishes and presuppositions about what that means, or the different things it can mean (from scally lads and chavs gettin' hectic, init, brrrrap! to the everything is magical in Merry Old England sold to us by Disney in the 60's and 70's, to the pining for Edwardian days that we love so much on TV today and never experienced here or could experience here for lack of the same breakdown of class structure).

    So, still, I wonder what, in Matt's wonderfully visual manner of writing, do my "American hands" mean to him. :)
     
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  24. matwoolf

    matwoolf Banned Contributor

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    Okay, I must, and have to now admit 'American hands' was...nonsensical.

    ...

    Later, wriggling alone at home, I was thinking...maybe 'Jazz Hands?' Earlier also I briefly pictured a swarthy cowboy wielding a lasso. I was his victim, possibly wearing shorts only. I ran and I ran away. He hooped me round the neck, I squealed. Then I woke up, hugged my wife, called her Boris.

    Then there is Trump - and his 'little hands.'
    ..
    Definitely, actually a fail - 'American hands.'

    'Hand(s) of America' - almost works...

    ...

    American stereotypes - teeth, of course, and also...and I did write this in a story, and in a magazine that only closed down last year, ffs, about when I was in California, everybody back then had the big muscles, six pack, bronze, nobody smoked, and I was only nineteen...I wrote [in my great story] Aside Steve, I felt like his piggy with the rickets, [possibly 'P' capitalized...can't remember.]
     
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  25. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    A blinding wall of regimented American teeth served as a kind of cornice to the brickwork of bronzed pectorals and abdominals facing the building that was Chad's body. A day at the beach in Brighton, I thought, would be a fun excursion for our visitor from Los Angeles. I sulked behind my tenth cigarette in two hours. Was the sun even out? Who could tell with Chad in the midst.

    BTW, your description of American stereotypes is often how we in America stereotype Australians. They pretty much send us everyone who ever stared on Home & Away, so, can you blame us? ;)
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2016
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