1. J.T. Woody

    J.T. Woody Book Witch Contributor

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    Usurping a throne

    Discussion in 'Plot Development' started by J.T. Woody, Nov 8, 2021.

    i'm pretty stable on the usurper ~for now~
    but brief comparison would be something like the Pope (Vatican City) coming for the throne if Queen Elizabeth (England) dies despite the fact Prince Charles is the heir.

    In this hypothetical, the Pope is planning to leave Vatican City and calling his followers to follow him as he takes the throne.
    We have protag A in Vatican City confronting the Pope. Protag B protecting the rightful heir (who doesnt know any of this is going down), and Protag C confronting the Pope's cheif naval officer in the southern seas.

    Protag C is where i'm stuck.
    Ideally, I want Protag C and his ship to confront the naval officer while he is alone (1 lone ship against another lone ship), but what reason would he have to travel alone? if he's going for allies in the south, wouldnt he bring more ships? if he was planning an attack from the south, again, he'd have more ships.
    I'm trying to figure out how this encounter would happen in a way that makes sense.

    *Note, the actions of B and C happen before A gets to the Vatican, so the Pope's plans are foiled before he even leaves Vatican City.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2021
  2. Bruce Johnson

    Bruce Johnson Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    Is this roughly comparable to the Age of Sail with the availability of gunpowder?
     
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  3. J.T. Woody

    J.T. Woody Book Witch Contributor

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    yes
     
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  4. Bruce Johnson

    Bruce Johnson Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    Does he HAVE to be alone? Naval warfare can at times be chaotic and weather and miscommunication can leave a fleet in complete disarray.

    Outside of that, one option is Protag C makes a run to a neutral country pretending to smuggle the rightful heir to safety (maybe even with a royal imposter/decoy) as an act of deception, knowing there is a good chance the enemy Chief Naval Office will bite. I don't know how or why this would fit the plot though, but I think it could work.
     
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  5. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    Why is this religious figure taking the throne? What context produced the opening for them to do this? Because in most if not all cases, usurpations or unexpected choices of heir occur in specific circumstances that created an opportunity or perceived need for an unusual candidate. For example. Henry VII came to the throne after the chaos of the Wars of the Roses, the relative lack of candidates after they had been killing each other, and the large and eclectic opposition to Richard III. and he did so with the support of the Dowager Queen of Richard's brother, which gave him the appearance of relative continuity between his Lancastrian reign and that of the Yorkist Edward IV, who's daughter he married to seal the union. Similarly, when George I was selected it was because the more immediate heirs were Catholics, and George was one of the Protestants with the closest claim, he was descended from James VI and I's daughter, making him descended from the first Stuarts in England. This was considered necessary because Queen Anne of Great Britain (the first Queen to rule a country officially called Britain) had seventeen pregnancies, but all of them either miscarried or died young so her Protestant advisors need a different line. That kind of context would be really important for any succession crisis like this.
    As for the naval battle issue, it does seem likely they would be accompanied by at least a few other ships, but perhaps it is a lighter escort for speed and they will gather more later? That might work well enough if you tweak your scene. Four is more comparable to one than to fifty with ships, so as long as you keep the number small the naval dynamics I believe will be fairly similar.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2021
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  6. J.T. Woody

    J.T. Woody Book Witch Contributor

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    i want Protag C to win, and he cant do that if he's outnumbered.
    He's had it out for this guy for years, the two playing cat and mouse for just as long, both taking hits.
    I want this to be the final confrontation between them.

    I also thought about them jumping him while he's on land, but I cant think of a reason why he'd be on land this soon.
     
  7. Bruce Johnson

    Bruce Johnson Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    There have been some notable Naval battles won by a significantly inferior force, like the Battle of Myeongnyang, but of course it usually doesn't end like that and we don't talk about the ones where the odds play out the way you'd expect.

    You could take it as a challenge to describe the factors that help the 'good guys' win (weather, adopting more modern tactics, etc.). If it's done well, the readers will buy it.
     
  8. J.T. Woody

    J.T. Woody Book Witch Contributor

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    this is a low fantasy WIP, so their is basic magic in it.
    The country hated how the previous monarchy handled mystics (essentially kicking them out instead of destroying them). the religious figure has built up his persona as a savior/god figure. He manipulated events that made the heir seem unfit (basically, when Protag A meets him, he's this useless, self absorbed guy who has been isolated from politics and his family since he was a child).
    Pope guy also has followers amongst nobles and current military.

    its funny because while I was looking for a solution to Protag C's confrontation, I found the wiki page about Stephan "taking" the throne after Henry I died after naming his daughter as heir. The daughter didnt know her father had died and Stephen swooped in. When the daughter found out, a civil war started for control of the throne.

    had never come across it until today, but its pretty much like the situation in my WIP. King dies, heir doesnt know, some other guy plans to swoops in. Except the last part doesnt play out because A, B, and C foil it.

    My notes are more detailed then what I'm actually putting in the WIP. the Pope/Vatican City vs the monarchy is a secondary plot.
     
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  9. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    Magic could definitely help in the naval battle scenario. It's a very fluid creative factor that can operate under all sorts of specific rules and peculiarities. Perhaps the protags have some particularly useful spell or creative use of one that allows them to pull an unexpected advantage? Perhaps the antagonists have, say, magical protections that for some environmental factor, let's say the cycles of the moon, become deactivated or weaker that provides an opening.
    Much like the accession issue, battlesand fights can easily be determined by situational factors that provide the opportunity or weight things a certain way or another.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2021
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  10. X Equestris

    X Equestris Contributor Contributor

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    Depending on how exactly you set things up, it’s definitely possible to win while outnumbered. Perhaps C’s vessel is superior in construction or firepower, and thus fully capable of going toe-to-toe with an entire squadron. In the War of 1812, the British Admiralty ordered its captains not to engage American heavy frigates like the USS Constitution with anything less than a ship of the line or frigates in squadron strength because their own frigates were outgunned in one-on-one duels.

    Alternatively, does C have to have only one ship for this confrontation? If not, a squadron-level action might solve your issue here. You can still have your climactic confrontation between C and the antagonist while the rest of their respective forces fight in the background.

    If you really are limited to C’s ship, I’d suggest looking for an environmental way to neutralize the enemy admiral’s advantage in hulls. Maybe C knows these waters better and skillful navigation allows him to wreck a few ships with reefs, sandbars, or—since it’s fantasy—some big whirlpool. If C is hunting the admiral, maybe he catches them at anchor like Nelson did at the Battle of the Nile.
     
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  11. Le Panda Du Mal

    Le Panda Du Mal Contributor Contributor

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    Great example. Possibly the most glorious naval victory in history.
     
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  12. Chromewriter

    Chromewriter Contributor Contributor

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    Reasons why to travel alone:

    Speed

    Deception

    Navigation skills (not everyone could make the trip)

    Endurance

    Environment (think battle of
    Thermopylae)

    Melodrama (he was chasing the ship and wanted his revenge on his terms)

    His other ships were destroyed in a storm

    Finances (could only afford one ship)

    Hope this helps.
     
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  13. Joe_Hall

    Joe_Hall I drink Scotch and I write things

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    I believe it was one of the kings of Pontus who got a few friends together, rode into a town proclaiming himself the king as a descendant of Alexander the Great and Cyrus of Persia. The town was in upheaval with rival factions but he came in so sure of himself with such a show they believed him and made him king without any legitimate claim to the throne at all.

    In this situation I think the attitude of the nation you are trying to usurp is everything. To go alone or with a few friends he has to expect that when he gets there, the nation has to be fed up with the legitimate heirs for real or imaginary reasons. If they are happy with their life they are not going to gravitate towards a leader with a flimsy claim. If you are claiming a throne against a content populace, you are going to need a fleet and troops for an invasion and subsequent suppression of insurgency.

    If the Pope is planning an invasion and does have an invasion force, you could have him still in waters where he is feeling safe, somewhere in the Mediterranean. Due to his feeling of safety they might sail with no or minimal escort. Protag C could bring a faster ship, perhaps disguised as a neutral nation and use the ruse to surprise the Pope or his naval officer. The Papal ship is probably going to be fit more for comfort and be larger and less maneuverable than Protag C who can defeat it through superior seamanship. Think pirates who used repurposed small craft to defeat treasure galleons.

    Just a few thoughts I figured I'd throw out there.
     
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  14. Bruce Johnson

    Bruce Johnson Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    Another possibility to consider, in addition to what's already been suggested, is that the Pope's Chief Naval Officer WASN'T traveling alone but gets isolated from the main force somehow. I know it is a little cliché but you could have Protag C isolating his arch-enemy in the open seas using a magical boom. No, not an audible boom, something like this:

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boom_(navigational_barrier)

    Obviously, booms are really only possible in narrow straits or the entrance to a harbor. But since your work is fantasy, you could have a magical boom created stretching across a body of water of impossible length, surprising the enemy, like maybe some legendary 'Poseidon's Boom' which might be more like a golden force field, allowing for the one one one battle, or giving the Protag enough time to engage until reinforcements arrive. Again, this is cliché, but you could have a sublot of one of the Protag getting the necessary resources or incantations for the magical boom. Even more cliché would be if it required the sacrifice of one of the crew to the Seafaring Gods.
     
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  15. J.T. Woody

    J.T. Woody Book Witch Contributor

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    I'm starting to put together something based on what you guys have said (lol, i was thinking about it all day while at work :p)
    Protag C has made a living robbing and raiding Naval dude's ships over the years, so he knows this guy and he knows the waters better than him, who is more comfortable in familiar territory (its hard to explain; i have a map somewhere on here, tho that would make it make sense). So maybe Naval Dude is traveling with other ships as protection on his way to do..... idk yet, (what does an admiral do while waiting for a coup?)
    I can give Protag C another ship... even better, i can have him steal one of Naval Dude's ships and sabotage from within, cutting down Naval Dude's numbers quite a bit. I like the environmental aspect, too. He gets the admiral on the run, herding him toward a group of ruins where he basically sinks the ship.
    I like the brains over numbers plots

    I want to stay away from using magic in any of the battles. The type of magic in this world is more so passive. less elemental, and more dealing with the 5 senses. Sound was the only active magical ability that was used to harm (think Sirens luring ships to their dooms..... and these are the ruins Protag C herds Naval Dude into, btw), and non-magic users wiped them out first. so really none of the remaining abilities would be useful in a sea battle, and if they were, people with these abilities are few and far between because they've been persecuted and pushed into hiding.

    its all coming together!:D:D:D
     
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  16. Joe_Hall

    Joe_Hall I drink Scotch and I write things

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    I was thinking about this the other day but I was quite busy with work. Here is an idea:

    Since Protag C has intimate knowledge of the ships and waters where Naval dude is operating, I would suggest he takes his stolen ship and strip it of all unnecessary weight, probably even some cannons and cannon balls, pretty much anything he can to lessen his draft. He could sail into their formation, broadside a few of their ships to make them chase him then, as his draft is less, sail safely over a shoal. The fully loaded enemy ships, now in mad pursuit, run into the shoal and begin to sink. Naval guy manages to turn in time to save his ship but now is alone to face Protag C.
     

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