I hate to have to explain what I thought to have been clever ( I guess it wasn't) but the two cases I provided conflict with one another. "Stop all verbal assaults in school" is the same as saying "I don't want my kid getting exposed to any germs." Quite frankly, I don't want to live in a world filled with p******.
So allowing kids to verbally attack each other, to gang up on ethnic and other minorities, to torment the kid with Down's syndrome and the one in the wheelchair, is what will make us a strong society? A strong society teaches kids math, English, and history, but never says even one little word about interpersonal behavior, because children of course will grow into socially functional adults without any such guidance? A strong society embraces the Lord of the Flies school of child rearing? I assume that that extends into adulthood, that it's also OK for your boss to come up to your desk and scream himself red-faced at you, and for your co-workers in a business meeting to break into a chant insulting your ethnicity. For that matter, should we have a police force? Doesn't encouraging citizens to think that the police will protect them turn them into asterisk-filled words, too? I assume, too, that we want kids with chicken pox and German measles to come to school instead of being kept home, so that we can all develop nice strong immune systems.
So, it sounds like you'd like to abolish most of the regulatory structures of most of civilization. You're entitled to that opinion, but it's not one that I find interesting to debate. I think that people need governments, and I'm unlikely to be convinced otherwise.
In a perfect world, cops have graduate degrees and integrity, parents are around to nurture their kids, help them understand concepts like respect and self esteem, and public school aren't zoos. Until then, we can do with a little bit of thick skin.
So if, as a scenario, a group of kids is gathered around a kid with Down's syndrome, chanting insults at him, and a teacher walks by--should the teacher take no action at all?
If we can define verbal bullying as "picking on the disabled" then I absolutely agree every measure should be taken to prevent it.
Where do you draw the line? What if the kid is dyslexic? What if he's socially behind other kids? What if he's ADHD? What if he has a panic disorder? Why do some kids get protection, while the kid who is tormented all day every day based on the institutional memory that he showed up once with a bad haircut, doesn't? What if the tormenting causes him to be disabled? Once he's suicidal, are we allowed to protect him, or do we let him die so that his thin skin no longer brings down the population's average? And you didn't answer about adults. Should adults be allowed to gather around the conference table at work to insult your ethnicity with skin-thickening songs and chants, and perhaps PowerPoint slides?
If being protected from bullying makes people weak, surely being protected from bullying based on race would do the same thing? If we're depriving kids of protection for their own good, shouldn't we *completely* deprive them of all protection? Are you assuming that most bullying is done for good and logical reasons, as in, "Well, he did wear a silly colored shirt; he obviously deserves it"? Do we want to teach that racism is wrong but ostracism (Edited to say: no, I mean bullying--I'm not even talking about fixing the ostracism) based on clothing choices, haircuts, having a funny voice, or whether one's dad drives a cool car is just fine?
Since you asked, I draw the line after anything that cannot be used against you when applying for a job, like race, religion, gender, sexuality, and also any disability. I'd also add poverty, and this is a hard and fast line that shifts, and is not set in stone. Here's another hard and fast rule. Those born healthy and from decent families are the ones who should be stepping up, taking leadership roles, and improving themselves so they can contribute to society to the best of their abilities. This requires somewhat of a thick skin, don't you think? I'm not interested in protecting little Johnny because his mom makes him wear turtlenecks to school. I'm interested in Johnny becoming a man. He shouldn't need the same protection as someone with down syndrome.
How do you know who's healthy and from a decent family? How do you know whose father is an alcoholic, whose mother is a malignant narcisissist, who has an undiagnosed mental illness? How do you know if the turtleneck is cause for mockery because it's cheap (therefore, this is about poverty) or because it's a funny color? How do you sift through the hundreds of factors that would be required to decide that *this* shouted insult is forbidden and *that* shouted insult is good healthy cruelty? Why not just forbid shouting insults? Is it that important to leave room for emotional abuse? If emotional abuse were essential to development, then we'd make sure that the popular kids got their share, presumably by training teachers to watch for kids who don't seem to be getting any abuse and abuse them. A thick skin doesn't come from experiencing emotional abuse. A thick skin doesn't come from inflicting emotional abuse. Encouraging and enabling cruelty, hatred, and sadism in our children is not going to help them to become strong, healthy leaders and contributing citizens. Teaching our children to overcome their antisocial impulses and substitute better behavior is far, far more likely to do that. It's OK to raise children, to give them guidance and consequences, rather than just throw food and water at them and see what happens. The children that we'd protect from abuse would still experience plenty of unhappiness. We can't regulate friendships or liking; those children are going to be isolated and lonely. Isn't that enough?
You're right, I guess can live with that Your post was very good. Explained things well and changed my mind. Thanks for conversing.
In my experience this is true. Just ignoring a problem doesn't make it go away. I don't have a lot of experience with bullying, I was only ever bullied by one person in my entire life. There was a second kid who tried it but he didn't get very far. The first one, though, went through most of first school and most of middle school, and thankfully he wasn't very popular so I didn't ever get trouble from anyone else. I didn't see him a lot either, so there was always plenty of time between each incident. It happened once a month, thereabouts. This is my only experience with bullies so it's all I have to go off, and hearing what other people have said (not just here on the forums but in real life too) I know I had it very easy. I've always found it easy to make friends, or if not friends then people often like me at least. I don't know, considering everything, that it's even worth telling this; but the only real bully I ever had, had his fun for a good few years. And I understandably resented it. I heard the 'ignore them' advice, but it just wasn't satisfying me. I decided that near the end of middle school - before we went to different high schools (I didn't want him ganging up on me later on) I would beat him up. I've always liked to be physically active, so I don't have an inconsiderable amount of physical strength, and I knew I could best him too. And I knew I only let him mess me around because by nature I'm passive and peace-loving. But this wolf has claws. It was the last week of middle school. We lived in the same village. So after the bus ride home I caught up to him and punched him in the face. He only was able to hit me once or twice, and they were not very good shots on me. I hit him several times, gave him a black eye, and afterward told him if he ever tried to bully me again I'd make him regret it. After that fight the bully stayed away from me for the rest of middle school, and because I had won a fight I got a little more respect from people. Another thing I found is that I didn't regret it one iota. Now, I don't exactly want to advocate punching a bully to solve problems, but I will say it did work for me. I think Cog said what I was going to say about verbal abuse, only more eloquently than I could think of putting it.
the fact that someone will not stand up for themselves is a big issue. how will you stand up when it matters? Conflict is natural part of life, if you can enjoy it all the better. plus when someone give you some abuse and you wipe the floor with them its a great feeling. Kind of like
"Ignoring" the bullying didn't help me at all. Most of the insults the boys threw at me didn't work, because none of them applied to me, and I even thought "screw them" when they teased me about my race and skin color because there was nothing I could have changed... but it only escalated, as they began threatening to hurt me, to cause injuries to my head. I'm surprised that they didn't resort to violence... maybe they had that sense that, at the very least, they wouldn't have been able to leave a fight without some sort of injury. I don't know. It was just messed up in general that I had boys threatening bodily harm to when I am female.
"Stop teaching him how the gears work! And why did you tell him to stop speeding? If you insist on teaching him, how will he be able to drive when it matters?" "Stop teaching him grammar! If you keep teaching him, how will he be able to write when it matters?" "When he's an adult, he's going to have to do his own math, so for heaven's sake will you stop teaching him long division?" When they grow up, kids are going to have to know how to drive, to write, to do math, and to deal with conflict and deal with social situations. For the first three, we teach them, give them guidance, present them with situations of increasing complexity and independence until they're ready to work on their own. For the last two, some people seem to expect that throwing them into a pen with other kids and letting them fight it out is going to produce solid citizens. This makes no sense to me.
careful i got hey fever, all this straw could be bad for my allergies. but to play in the straw, their is classroom learning and lessons, and their is the real world experience witch is where you really learn. if you wont stand up for yourself then who will? like i said like it or not conflict is a natural part of life. Its the world we live in, its not perfect but its the way it is. i shake my head and think i sound like my grandfather when i say it but, " it builds character"
Trauma does build character. As writers, we build stories around this basic truth. But there is trauma, and there is trauma. What we can avoid with reasonable prudence, we should. I taught my kids how to fight, but I also raised them never to start a fight, and I taught them that there is courage in walking away.
But driving is also real world experience. So if we let kids learn to be social beings without any help or guidance, why should we give them any help or guidance about driving? Or about being a pedestrian - why teach them to wait for the Walk sign before they cross the street? Why not refuse to help them with *all* real world, non-classroom skills? But that's not what we do. We teach kids how to get along in the real world. So why is social interaction and conflict resolution, one of the most important skills an adult can have, an area where we should just stand back and hope that kids figure it out on their own?
so instead of building a bigger straw man why dont you quote where i said that their should be no guidance? i can see why you where a target, everyone loves burning straw men.
I was bullied quite badly for the majority of my school career, mostly verbally but also physically. I went to a christian school, there was quite a lot of bullying and I became one of the main targets. From year three up until the start of year eleven, my school was kindy to year twelve, I was bullied. The option of moving to a new school was there but it didn't seem like a viable one, early on I was waiting for it to pass and later I feared that the bullying would continue at a new school and it would be my fault rather than the schools. Anyone who says words can't hurt has never gone through bullying. I was sensitive and somewhat reserved to begin with but after a few years it got to the point where I had basically no self esteem and ceased being helpful or considerate because I felt everyone was an enemy, I am a completely different person because of it and while I may have a thicker skin now I still have trouble seeing the best in people and am quite closed off which make it hard to trust people or be likeable. As for thicker skin there was a time when I was quite depressed and hated myself. Because the bullying was not isolated, members of every social group took part, and I was an outsider when it began I had a very hard time making friends throughout school which makes it harder to ignore. It got to the point where I would sit alone because I didn't see the point in trying to make friends when people were all so awful. The main advice was to ignore it which I tried to do but if you hear something often enough and loud enough and from enough people you start to believe it. I wouldn't be able to permanently ignore it and would end up in tears. Later on I managed to make friends with a new student and sit with her and some people, since I had a friend the group was less likely to openly attack me. I still got some s*** but by snapping back they didn't get their desired response and started to leave me alone. It took awhile but while there was still the occasional snide remark up until I graduated a month ago, I was more the object of gossip than the target of bullying. However if someone is know for fighting back verbally or getting violent, that becomes the desired response and any retaliation short of beating up the bullies, hard when they travel in packs, will be ineffective. There is a great difference between one off incidents and bullying. Most people can cope with a single incident but the wrong response can turn a single incident into bullying. Single incidents build a tough skin whereas constant bullying can
Hmm. When kids aren't taught how to deal with conflict, they may be unable to form a coherent response when faced with a conflict. Instead, they often descend to malicious personal remarks.
To some it's no big deal (usually people who haven't been truly bullied), yet many kids have committed suicide because of bullying. How's that not a big deal? How's that not a clear sign that people exist who will be devoured when thrown into the pit with the hyenas? Throw them a lion and they cower in a corner, but not everyone is born a lion (few are, actually). It's always sad to behold a man who's trying to fight back but gets pulverized simply because he doesn't know how to fight. Fighting, like every skill, needs to be practiced, preferably with others and with a good teacher. Some have more of a natural knack for it than others, but even the "gifted" are like fish on dry land when they face an opponent(s) who actually knows what they're doing. I've seen a 14yo wrestler beat the living fuck out of a 21yo guy who had a knife: the kid took him down, got rid of the knife, beat the guy until he was unconscious, then stood up, and proceeded to kick and stomp his head for a while. The guy ended up in a hospital. The kid was over a head shorter and probably at least 30lbs lighter, but he knew what he was doing while the other guy didn't. That is messed up. Might also be a cultural thing or otherwise related to the mentality at a certain area because in lots of places, at least here in southern Finland, beating a girl is a huge no-no, even in school. All it took was one slap and a group of guys hunted down the guilty fellow and used him as a punching bag. That happened a few times when we were 13-15. In high school no guy ever dared beat a girl. I know it happens all around the world, but for some reason whenever I see / hear about it, I'm surprised such a thing could happen. Except in martial arts clubs where it's kinda hard to avoid in mixed groups. This. Every parent should do the same. Telling a kid never to hit back just makes them the proverbial bipedal cheeseburger for the bullies. That's where cunning comes in. You know, targetting the bullies individually, at a time and place of your choosing, when they are at their most vulnerable etc. If they assault a solitary victim as a group, there's really nothing to do except fight back the best you can and run away the first chance you get.
