1. O.M. Hillside

    O.M. Hillside Senior Member

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    Making Stuff Happen?

    Discussion in 'Plot Development' started by O.M. Hillside, Feb 4, 2018.

    What do you think about a story which has a focus on characters and themes as opposed to an action packed, juicy plot? In my writing, I tend to put priority on character and theme exploration. I'm not sure if this is a problem or not because in the story I'm working on now, there isn't really much in the way of events, but I think there's a lot in terms of character and themes. But, I do worry it might boring. So what are your thoughts on balancing these two (well three) aspects?
     
  2. Shenanigator

    Shenanigator Has the Vocabulary of a Well-Educated Sailor. Contributor

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    It depends on the genre, but as both reader and writer, I prefer to focus on the characters, because if the reader doesn't care about the people, they won't care what happens to them or what they're doing. When the characters are interesting, fully-developed people, plots develop out of their complexities. At least, that's the theory I work from! Everyone has a secret. Everyone has fears.

    In my current WIP, there is a distinct theme running through the entire novel: the way people isolate themselves from each other. Every character in the book is isolated, in one form or another. The theme goes with the title of the book. It's the first time I've worked with a theme to this degree, and it's helping to create some of the plot lines.

    ETA: For the first draft, I don't think it's that huge of a problem. I know that sounds weird, but I think you have to know your characters before you can stir things up sufficiently to rock their world. Just be prepared for a lot of additions and rearranging of things. (Rewrites is a scary word.)
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2018
  3. Ashley Bird

    Ashley Bird Member

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    Are you writing short stories or a novel and are you writing with a veiw to being published?

    I believe the style you are describing works best in short stories. They are ones I like to read and write. I used to believe that stories needed a clever plotvwith twists and excitement. Then I was introduced to a few writers that wrote stories about ordinary people doing ordinary things and it changed everything for me.

    In my opinion, novels are an escape, you pick them up to be drawn in and entertained. Short stories should be about the human experience and give you a snap shot of something. Of course novels can do that and short stories can be plot heavy but it's about preference.

    If you like the sort of stuff you write that's all that matters. If you try to write something to fit what others want, chances are it won't be your best work.

    If it helps I once wrote a story about a young couple walking their dog. The only action was them walking through the woods holding a lead. The dog may have jumped in a bush once but that's about it.
     
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  4. Lemie

    Lemie Contributor Contributor

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    Interesting characters often trumps for me, but yes, it can easily become boring.

    I've read a few books which was more or less plot less. Nothing happened except watching them go about their life. There are writers who can do this wonderfully - but I think most would fail. Because it's hard to get your readers to like the characters that much that they could do nothing and you keep reading.

    That said it doesn't have to be action packed. I'd guess that a low key drama or such would fit with just exploring the characters, their relationships and their relations with the key plot. Because it all has to cycle around something, right? Because while characters trumps for me, without a proper plot to live around there is a good chance the book will seem pointless.
     
  5. DeeDee

    DeeDee Contributor Contributor

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    Most of Pulitzer prize books will be boring to the average teenager. Some action packed bestsellers might be boring to the fans of Pulitzer prize books. Some books are rejected by agents and publishers for being boring despite that the author's grandma had found it very exciting. People find different things interesting. So when you consider if something is "boring", it's good to also consider who likes what. And if you look at the books sold out there, you might notice there are quite a few which would fall within the description of "there isn't really much in the way of events". But if you start looking into the reviews those books get, you might also notice that people who enjoy those books focus on other stuff apart from the "events". And that other stuff is just as good as "events". A plot about Joe getting hit by a bus can be just as exciting as the plot about Joe who is very much scared that he'll be hit by a bus that he doesn't go outside at all, he just sits by the window all day doing nothing. But then he sees a pretty girl outside and now he very much wants to go out, and maybe he eventually does. The interesting stuff in the second plot is not what Joe does but what Joe thinks about. And that thinking can be all the action in the book, and it can be just as exciting as the plot where Joe gets hit by a bus and guts fly everywhere. If you think about it, both plots have conflict in them - the first is Joe vs the bus, the second is Joe vs his fears. If it's written well, then Joe's conflict about Joe fighting his fears and overcoming them would be just as intriguing as the conflict about Joe getting hit by a bus and getting his face smashed. Maybe even more intriguing to some people.
     
  6. Albeit

    Albeit Active Member

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    Couldn't agree more.

    May I add that I find people much more interesting than the events which a writer can conjure up, especially while letting the principle characters take a sort of backseat to even the most grandiose occurrences. The event is just a happening if not for the characters being somewhat the vehicle used to convey the perception of the author, at least that is what I find makes writing and reading interesting for the most part.

    More graphic example : Coen brothers movies, the events would be less interesting if not for the characters that they draw up and put through the events. Robert Altman had that going for him as well, the events were what the characters moved in and through.
     
  7. Odile_Blud

    Odile_Blud Active Member

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    No. This is not a problem. What you are describing sounds like literary fiction. Look into it. There are many fans of it, and I happen to enjoy that style of story telling myself.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018
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  8. O.M. Hillside

    O.M. Hillside Senior Member

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    Well, I'm glad to hear that. That's sort of what I as going for. Awesome.
     
  9. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    Umm... No. Literary fiction does have plot. Maybe you should read more of it before making such a remark that kind of is a bit offending to those who write literary fiction. And to the OP -- I would be much more concerned about making stuff happen in my writing than trying to bring out any sort of themes. No one ever said, "You've got to check out this book with amazing themes." No, it's not the themes that make a story interesting. It is the story (the things that happen) that make a story interesting.
     
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  10. Odile_Blud

    Odile_Blud Active Member

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    I never said that literary fiction does not have plot (I should know, I read and write it too). However, literary fiction tends to be character driven rather than plot driven and focuses a lot on theme. No one said that it did not have story, neither did I say that it cannot have a plot or be entertaining, but what the OP describes sounds a lot like what literary fiction is. Maybe you should reread my comment instead of making assumption of what I am trying to say.
     
  11. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

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    Commercial fiction: plot driven
    Upmarket: character driven
    Literary: prose driven

    Literary fiction is not necessarily plot-less, but it's highly dependent on prose, word-play, imagery, and theme in the (albeit cliched) change-your-life-sense... you know, Pulitzer material like Faulkner, McCarthy, Morrison, et al. Short answer here: if you don't have much "going on" in terms of story, you better be a ninja wordsmith that can enrapture a reader by turn of phrase of alone. Even the most interesting characters will face plant after a few dozen pages if they have nothing to do.

    Sounds like the OP might be referring to something more like contemporary fiction, which is a catch-all category that encompasses "real life, real people" books that don't slot into any other genre. Literary fiction sort of fits the same genre-less description, but it has to be prose driven in order to be interesting to anyone. Otherwise, there's little reason to read it.
     
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  12. Sheriff Deputy

    Sheriff Deputy New Member

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    A great story deserves both. In depth characters against life's conflicts.

    You shouldn't write for a genre or a classification. You should write what you feel. Don't label it.
     
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  13. Forinsyther

    Forinsyther Member

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    The great thing about writing fiction is that the audience spectrum is so vast. Some people can't do without action, some can, it depends on how much emotion and backstory you're putting into the characters, and how relatable they are. You said you're focusing more on theme which can work without action, but obviously the world itself should fit with this theme. And it can still be a great story if the plot focuses more on a journey, whether it be emotional or physical, because it just depends on the demographic.

    There's a book I just finished called "The Wolf in the Attic" that only had action right at the end and it only lasted a couple of pages. But I loved the story, the protagonist was so well written and relatable. I was genuinely curious to see where this story would take her and where she'd end up, and the majority of the book was her just living in this house and wandering around the woods nearby. So yeah, it depends on who the characters are and what kind of journey it is.

    I think if your audience is emotionally attached to your characters you can be quite flexible with the journey you take them on, there doesn't need to be action, but a little bit of conflict would help.

    Hope this helped!
     
  14. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    I've been writing literary fiction for years and I think most editors who deal with literary fiction would say it's very character driven. And that matters more than whatever "prose driven means." Seriously, I write and sell the stuff and I wouldn't call my writing fancy. Yes, you need to be able to write, but that's still not going to be enough even with literary fiction. If you are telling someone a story, you are telling them about things that happened. Same with writing. Regardless of genre things need to happen for it to be a story.
     
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  15. DeeDee

    DeeDee Contributor Contributor

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    You could say that nothing happened in "Bridges of Madison County" except watching people go about their life: they chatted a little, walked around a little, ate some dinner. But then, if you consider what was happening inside those character's heads, there was a lot of unseen action, unseen obstacles, even unseen battles and unseen wounds. The book was an emotional rollercoaster, an edge-of-the-seat suspense and a tense mystery. The plot was rather twisty, with red herrings and unexpected turns. And all that while, technically, nothing really happened. Or did it? :superthink::supercheeky::evilsmile: I'd say that a lot happened. The plot wasn't actually about that chatting, walking or dining. It was about invisible things like love, responsibility, consciousness, temptation, etc. The action was also invisible but it was there all the same. So, if you just saw the chatting, walking and dining, then you've missed the plot altogether. :whistle:
    A writer can also literary lose the plot when focusing only on characters and themes. Ten pages ruminations on love, responsibility, consciousness and temptations won't keep the reader's attention, even if they are followed by another ten pages of great character descriptions. The plot must be there to hold those themes and characters together.
     
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  16. Forinsyther

    Forinsyther Member

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    I agree, I actually really love stories where you have to analyse and pay attention to the psychology of the characters, or you have to read the underlying messages in the metaphors. Sometimes I actually find plots that are obvious or easy to follow a bit dull, I crave the in depth and discreet stuff. It makes the story last longer too, because you're thinking about it long after you've put the book down, and you might figure something out weeks after you've finished the book.
     
  17. Privateer

    Privateer Senior Member

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    Yes.

    In a short story you can take five minutes of somebody's life and really focus on it and what's going on with that person while, all around them, bugger all actually happens. It works wonderfully in that medium.

    For a novel, though? If there isn't an actual story it's going to be a long slog without much reward.
     
  18. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    I wouldn't say it's any better to write a plotless short story than a plotless novel. Do you know how hard it is to sell a short story? And to publish anywhere good there better actually be a story there with a plot and things happening. Just look at any known publication and read the short stories. There is a lot more story there than some people seem to think.
     
  19. Robert Musil

    Robert Musil Comparativist Contributor

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    It's true! No matter how many times I send them Grandmother's handwritten notes of praise, they still refuse. Fiddlesticks!
     
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  20. Ashley Bird

    Ashley Bird Member

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    I agree, novels need more than an interesting character study to leave you satisfied. Do you think that is why most Literary Fiction type books are shorter than say thrillers? Bit off topic just something I thought.
     
  21. Ashley Bird

    Ashley Bird Member

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    Can
    Can any story be plotless? That's quite interesting. I certainly didn't mean to say short stories should lack any plot at all, just that it is usually more subtle than in novels. At least in the ones that I think are great anyway. Of course there are all sorts of short stories that do different things. That's what I love about writing, you can take a story that has been told a thousand times and make it new because it is the first time you've written it. But I'm a nerd haha.
     
  22. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    Okay, if most short stories are around 4k words and the plot is subtle or not there, what the hell is happening in those 4k words? And I would love an example because I read a lot of short stories and I would like to see what you think is a plotless or subtle plot story. Again, I read them all the time. I think people can get experimental with their short works, but not at the cost of a plot. And known examples would be good. I'm guessing if you haven't read a lot of them, you've at least read some of the most famous. Anyway, some could argue there is a market for anything and that would be sort of true since anyone can start a blog and call it a publication and publish whatever they want including plotless stories, but aint nobody making money of that.
     
  23. Ashley Bird

    Ashley Bird Member

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    I think you have misuderstood what I was saying. When I asked, can any story be plotless? I was genuinely asking the question, is it possible to write a story without a plot? I'm not sure it is. I wasn't claiming that stories without a plot are better or even exist. If you read the first three sentences of my post that you quoted, I've already said this.

    It seems you have taken my original point to the extreme for some reason. I'm not sure why.

    What I am talking about is the difference between Dashiell Hammett's Nightmare Town and Why Don't You Dance? by Raymond Carver. One is a bit of a thrill ride and the other is more subtle and interested in character more than an exciting plot. I didn't think that kind of difference needed clarifying, my bad, I will try to be more clear in future.
     
  24. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    Why Don't You Dance? is one of my favorite short stories. And things do happen in this quiet story. I wasn't trying to single you out or go to any sort of extreme. I was just trying to join the conversation. Didn't mean to piss you off.
     
  25. Ashley Bird

    Ashley Bird Member

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    Carver is my favourite writer. I find that his stories leave you with a sense of something rather than anything concrete. That's what I meant by subtle.

    When I first read his work I had never seen anything like it. The power he gets into simple situations is amazing. The plot of Why Don't You Dance? is so simple and set over such a short time but I get a sense of the mans entire life, same for the young couple. It's incredible writing.
     

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