VS Naipul's Advice for Writers

Discussion in 'General Writing' started by arron89, Apr 25, 2011.

  1. popsicledeath

    popsicledeath Banned

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    The problem with rules is they're often great for being descriptive. A professional writer or teacher has studied tons of fiction and manuscripts, seen trends, thinks to share them. That's great, but the problem is often even accurate descriptive rules aren't good when placed in a prescriptive application. A beginning writer starts writing to the rules, not just writing in a way that if done right, will eventually lead to their writing adhering to those rules. It may seem like a slight difference, but it's huge in the scheme of teaching or learning to write.

    The best (and worst, depending on your perspective) is the 'show, don't tell' stuff. At some point, some writers who probably were qualified to make such observances noted, according to their definition, that effective writing was often presented in a way as to create visual images, which is one of the stronger senses people use when reading fiction (oddly enough). That person also noted that poorly written, expository passages were often reported on in a newspaper style nature that just tells you the facts of what happened, but doesn't take measures to create the visual, which is more effective.

    Ah, Eureka, they identified a trend, can slap a quick and easy saying to it, "Show, don't tell!" and writers around the world are all better for it, right? Right?

    Well, I can tell you, having hundreds of hours in fiction classrooms, working both as a student and in a teaching capacity, no, that mantra is the ruin of so many writers. Why? Because at best it's a true descriptor of a lot of fiction (not all), but at worst it's a vague prescriptive rule that writers focus on, trying to write to the rule, and then don't understand when their 'shown' fiction is terrible and you can read 'told' stories in anthologies that are amazing.

    There are more important things beginning writers need to do, and those things are usually more general, like 'create empathy' or 'don't be contrived or the reader won't trust you.' And these things are general, because there are many ways to do them, and no one rule, however easily packaged and repeated, will get a writer there.

    Rules that work are general because those that need them are at general stages of learning. If a beginning writer tries to adopt most of the sort of rules you see 'experienced' writers (but usually very inexperienced teachers) throwing around, they suddenly skip a lot of the general steps they need to learn, get fixated on specific steps, and then aren't able to write a forest as they're hung up on a single tree.

    The worst part is these rules are almost always full of exceptions, so then you spend your time explaining the rule, which means different things for different writers no matter how many times you try to make a rule have one meaning, and then spend the rest of the time excusing all the exceptions that come up.

    This is why I've had the pleasure of studying with several well respected authors and teachers, and not a single one uses a 'how to' book. The books we look to for our knowledge and rules are fiction, usually anthologies of short stories to get a wide range of styles and methods, and instead of just pointing out descriptive stuff like 'this writer showed right here, instead of told' which does no good, writers look at how these authors are doing bigger things, like how they're building empathy or trust or connecting a reader to a story, to give students an example of one method or aspect of quality fiction that they can either use, or adapt in their own writing.

    You can't really use or adapt 'NO ADVERBS' though, and I can guarantee there are plenty of examples of great fiction that use adverbs. So you either get to spend your time explaining rules and why they're being broken, but why you're going to expect an aspiring writer to still write to that rule, or you spend your time getting their writing focused on bigger, more important things, that will most likely result in them not needing to use adverbs to be effective.

    With the given list, it would be a shame and unhelpful if beginning writers were counting words in a sentence instead of focusing on what effect the sentence is accomplishing. The only ones from the list I would say are good, are 2, 4, and 6, as others have pointed out, but that's not because they're rules designed for fiction beginners, but simply at that point should be reminders of how to communicate clearly.

    One of the biggest issues I see in student manuscripts is when they write a sentence that literally doesn't mean anything, is so convoluted or confusing as to lose the meaning, or makes no sense by lacking any relevance or logical flow with sentences around it. But 'make sense' isn't really a rule, so much as a necessity, that sadly many people didn't learn at some point in basic English classes, so it needs reminded at times. And again, it's not so much a prescriptive rule, as a way for beginning writers to judge their own work.

    And you see, I even changed the rules from the OP to something more general "make sense!" so it's not a rule students can really even write to, and instead something they can ask themselves later that will help inform them of their own works, and sharpen their critical eye for fiction: "am what I writing even making sense, and if not, how?" It involves getting the writer actively engaged in figuring out what works and doesn't in fiction, investigating and learning (on their own, and hopefully with guidance when needed).

    On the other hand, "Are my sentences too long" doesn't really address any concept like 'make sense' as long sentences can make perfect sense. And even relevant 'rules' to our general concept, like 2, 4 and 6, are basically just giving beginning writers answers they probably aren't ready for, or they would have learned them as part of their own process of investigating fiction (that a teacher or mentor can of course help guide). So, even if you give a beginning writer useful rules, they're still not really being helped, as they have a 'don't touch that stove' rule and haven't really learned 'don't touch hot things' so may not touch the stove, but will then go burning their hands everywhere else. Then, they get bogged down with having to learn each individual thing not to touch, instead of being given the knowledge and ability to process when something is hot and why they shouldn't touch it.

    And we see this in fiction 'advice' even from experienced writers. They list the myriad little rules that may in fact be 'right,' especially to them because they do understand the greater concept the rules apply to, and beginning writers who listen to these rules now have a million little rules floating in their brain, aren't learning the concepts that led to these descriptive rules in the first place, and are wondering why their fiction isn't exactly working.

    Why? Because for these rules to be apply, seeing as they're descriptive in most cases, they'd have to already be writing at a high-quality level to be able to point to all the little rules. If they're already doing that, they don't need the rules. And if they aren't already quality writers, then the rules don't seem to help them until they learn, often independently of all these rules, the underlying concepts and ideas the rules pertain to. Then, at that point, half the rules become obsolete anyway, as learning the concept leads to the rules, so they don't have to worry about the rules. Or, learning the concepts leads to the writer coming up with their own, better rules, that pertain to them more directly and effectively.

    This is why, very literally, all the writing teachers I know, whether creative writing or otherwise, don't use 'how-to' books or list of rules. Who are these rules for, then? Sadly, as with many things in fiction these days, markets and money are at play. There are so many aspiring writers, and so many of these rules and mantras are so easy to swallow, thinking you actually learned something (when usually you didn't), that they're being pandered to (at best, preyed on at worst) and being fed all these 'how to' books and rules that usually come from monetized blogs or writers being paid to write an article (or sure, in some cases, writers trying to help teach, but not really being qualified or trained to, so their intentions are good, but not really all that helpful).
     
  2. digitig

    digitig Contributor Contributor

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    And as pieces of advice they're generally fine. The problem comes when they're turned into imperatives.
     
  3. Show

    Show Contributor Contributor

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    Such as saying "if you don't do this, you got a problem"? lol Advice should be taken with a grain of salt and you can only take in so much salt. Therefore, be selective in the advice you take or you'll have high blood pressure. :D
     
  4. KP Williams

    KP Williams Active Member

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    My thoughts on each of the rules. Though I believe I just used the wrong word to describe them. They don't seem like rules to me: they come off more like limitations.
     
  5. Trish

    Trish Damned if I do and damned if I don't Contributor

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    I think, personally, (and find it tremendously amusing) that people on this forum, who supposedly love to read and write, see a long post and skip over it or act like it doesn't exist. We want help, right? But when someone tries to give it to us, we don't even consider it unless they already agree with us or at the very least can contain it into one simple paragraph so we don't have to think too hard. Even if they do that we slight all their efforts because who the hell are they anyway? Me? I learn from everything. I even learn from the fact that half of you are so unwilling to read a post (or at least seem to be), and that the majority of you don't want assistance, you want to already be right. You don't have to agree to take something new away from it.

    Anyway, thank you Aaron89 and popsicledeath. I, for one, have found your posts enlightening.
     
  6. digitig

    digitig Contributor Contributor

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    I've not seen anybody in this thread who doesn't seem to have read the "rules". The discussion of how useful they are (or aren't) only makes sense if people have read them. The only one I think makes sense is the one about not using words one doesn't understand. For the rest, they seem to be the old thing about the drunk on a horse who falls off on one side, gets back on and then leans so hard to avoid falling off on that side again that he falls off on the other side. Beginners do something too much, so some pundit comes along and says don't do that at all. Which might make sense as a writing exercise but actually leads to writing that's still bad, but in a different way. I eat too much, which is presumably bad for my health, certainly bad for my waistline. This seems to be a common problem in the UK and USA. V S Naipul's advice would presumably be that nobody should ever eat anything ever again.

    The real danger with lists like these is that the rules actually do get accepted as rules. I remember one reviewer of one of the Harry Potter books saying what a great story it was, with great characters, great pace and how it was an all-round good read. But, because Rowling broke the "rule" on showing and telling, the book was rubbish and nobody should read it. He saw the "rule" about showing and telling as being more important than the fact that he enjoyed reading it! The most that the "rules" are is things to consider, if a passage isn't working.
     
  7. Trish

    Trish Damned if I do and damned if I don't Contributor

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    The point was that people seem unable to read through the discussion posts. I thought I made that clear when I thanked aaron89 and popsicledeath. It appears to be a moot point. You can't have a discussion if you don't READ the DISCUSSION. Instead you took the beginning of my post and made it seem as though I was talking about the rules.That's not exactly how it went down. Of course, I'm sure that's probably my failure in writing and not being clear rather than a failure to understand on anyone else's part.
     
  8. KP Williams

    KP Williams Active Member

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    Show me the rule stating that I must contribute to an ongoing discussion and I will do so. The original post asked for our thoughts on the list of advice, which I did. And to be perfectly earnest, I'm not interested enough in the topic to get all neurons firing. This would be why I ignored the monolith posted by popsicledeath. The only reason I'm responding to you at all is because I tend to get irritated when people say anything that resembles a judgment. The judgment here being that I'm too lazy to read through a topic.
     
  9. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    Agreed.
     
  10. Trish

    Trish Damned if I do and damned if I don't Contributor

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    It wasn't a judgement, it was an opinion. An opinion stating what I, personally, found amusing. An opinion stating what I, personally, learn from. It was also me, personally, thanking the people who take the time to try to teach us something instead of just right fight. I suppose I could say I'm sorry, that I didn't mean it, that your offense has wounded my soul, but then I would be breaking one of my, personal, rules.
     
  11. teacherayala

    teacherayala New Member

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    Honestly, I don't see that any of us are so completely off in left field. Trish, I think most of us have gotten your point that creativity is an organic process that needs to be nurtured in order to survive. We just haven't necessarily expressed it as passionately as you have. (this, by the way, is not intended as a criticism.) However, most of us have also decided that many writing (modern/contemporary writing) tends to follow trends. I, as a beginner, am trying to understand these trends, so it's good for me to know they exist. But I also, think, dear Trish that most of us also agree with you--that to make them "rules" as if we should NEVER do xyz is a rather silly enterprise AND, as you and many others here put it, very limiting.

    The fact of the matter is, however, that we all approach our writing differently and our creative process is all different depending on the type of writing we do. Some of us await "inspiration from the muse" a bit more than others, who sit down and get 'er done. In most of my creative writing classes, I have been mystified at what my teachers actually wanted from me. Their criteria was so vague and generalized that I would not always be able to meet their expectations. Knowing the trends does help clear that up a bit, but there is no easy fix to that.

    I think we all just need to calm down. No one is going to be standing over our shoulders telling us how to type/write our stories. And no one should be offended that someone posted the rules for discussion or that some people (somewhat) follow them. We're all bright enough people here to know that counting letters is ridiculous, yet still get the general idea that the rule is trying to express. I have no doubt that whatever approach the writer chooses to take, editing and revision will take care of a lot of the errors. Whether this is a long or short process is really up to the writer and the editor.
     
  12. Trish

    Trish Damned if I do and damned if I don't Contributor

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    The best part of your post, dear teacherayla, is that I don't think you've really gotten my point at all, I suppose I've failed again. I never said a word about trends, or it being limiting, or half of which you agree with me about. I thanked someone who said those things, but I didn't say it myself. Why? Because it had already been said. The point of my posts was that you can learn something from things you don't agree with. That you don't always have to be right and get defensive if someone disagrees with you. The point was that to have a discussion on a topic it's helpful to listen to the opposing side. Not agree with it, but listen, and acknowledge. The point was that many writers are so busy trying to be "different" and "original" and go their own way they've become as predictable and original as a flock of sheep. I'm not insulting individuality, fiestiness, originality, or anything else you may decide I'm insulting, I'm just saying that perhaps it's worth giving some thought to (and that comment is not directed to anyone specific). Teacherayla, I'm not upset at all so I don't know why I need to calm down.
     
  13. teacherayala

    teacherayala New Member

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    Trish--oops. My apologies. I did read the entire thread, but as it is a very active conversation, I mistook Ice Queen's early post for one of yours. The passionately part was about her. However, the organic process I got from your post where you were talking about how it's normal to make mistakes and that's what the editing and revision process is for. Sorry.

    The calming down part was not directly to you, but to a variety of people who seemed to be a little upset and/or defensive, as you have pointed out. I never thought you were insulting anyone, and I'm not insulted by anything you said, or anyone else here for that matter.

    I totally agree with you that there is no need to be defensive, but instead maintain an open mind. What's also funny is that I think on some level, we're all agreeing here on this particular thread to some of the same things, which was really what I was trying to convey in my earlier post. I'm sorry if you thought the whole thing was directed only to you.

    I apologize for the mistake in identity. It is I who is hoping that I have not offended you. If I thought you were upset earlier, it was mostly due to the commas and repetition of personally post that made me think that something irked you. I also wasn't trying to sound condescending by calling you "dear." I very frequently use that word even in general conversations. I'm sorry if it bothered you.
     
  14. teacherayala

    teacherayala New Member

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    This was the post where I got the "limiting" idea from. Yes, you were talking about how people shouldn't just always think they're right all the time and be willing to learn new things, but you also mentioned that there shouldn't be rules because we all have different teachers, different books, different life experiences, and that perhaps we should be willing to break out of one particular mold perceived as "right" and experiment with something else.
    Again, sorry if I misread.
     
  15. digitig

    digitig Contributor Contributor

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    I tried your experiment. Practically everything I picked up -- all reasonably current, high-street-store fiction -- broke rules 1, 3, 5 and 6 (although the writers were not beginners, so 5 doesn't really apply). Some broke rule 2, particularly by using fragments which do not make a statement. I can't tell whether the writers followed rules 4 or 7, although the indications are that they obeyed rule 4 because the books make sense. So that's one, maybe (but probably not) two of these "rules" that actually are applied in current published fiction. As Show said, "This sounds like a big glop of bad advice."
     
  16. arron89

    arron89 Banned

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    Well, you found some who didn't, I found some who did, either way it's irrelevant really because the list is aimed at beginners. Without naming any specific pieces or authors, there are plenty of pieces in the review room at the moment that could definitely benefit, in my opinion, from having some, if not all, of these rules applied. Maybe it's just personal taste, maybe me and Naipul just fall on the same side of some stylistic spectrum that has you and your books on the other side, but I stand by my statement that these rules will improve a great deal of amateur writing, with the exception of the first rule, which I've agreed all along is not a good rule (although the principle behind it should definitely be taken seriously).
     
  17. Trish

    Trish Damned if I do and damned if I don't Contributor

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    I said... "I don't think there shouldn't be rules. There should be, there are, whether or not people acknowledge them."

    I never said there shouldn't be rules. I did say that some of them should be, to my mind, common sense.

    Fair enough on the mistaken identity. No problem.

    I call people "Hon" all the time. I'm originally from the south is my only excuse. I make an effort not to do it where people can't see my face and tell whether or not I am joking, just talking, or being condescending. It looks different in writing, doesn't it? It took me a while to learn that.

    Also - I wasn't upset with all my comma's and overuse of the word "personally", I was trying to make it clear that it had been my opinion and not a judgement.

    As far as it being directed at me - I was responding to the paragraph that said my name, twice. That wasn't about me? Also at the end you said "We all just need to calm down" or something silmilar, though the word "all" was definitely there. I thought that included me. Then you said you did think I was upset, in one of the next ones, so maybe it was including me. Either way I'm not upset.
     
  18. Ice Queen

    Ice Queen New Member

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    Is there something wrong with being passionate about writing? I thought that's why I was on a writing forum... lol XD
     
    1 person likes this.
  19. teacherayala

    teacherayala New Member

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    Cool. Thanks for clearing that up. :) Glad I didn't offend.
     
  20. teacherayala

    teacherayala New Member

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    Definitely not! Be passionate! Passionate is great!!!
     
  21. Show

    Show Contributor Contributor

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    Well I'll just disagree. Aside from not using words you don't know and not being too vague, I honestly don't see any of these really applying anywhere or making anyone's writing better. If it looks like these rules MIGHT apply for beginners, my hypothesis is that there is another better solution. But we'll have to agree to disagree for now.
     

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