Warren v. Clinton

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by Steerpike, Nov 14, 2013.

  1. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    If it were an entitlement, that would be different. The only entitlements in the ACA are subsidies for people who can't afford the insurance. The argument should be on what level of income that is, because right now those costs are being shifted to the public that pays for insurance or their own health care.

    It's so easy to leave that inconvenient cost shifting fact out of the discussion. I'm already paying for the uninsured and I would prefer the cost be born by everyone not just by people who pay for their medical care.
     
  2. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    But that assumes that the ACA will cost, rather than save, money for the government. Many sources say that it will save money.

    Now, if you disagree--I don't know if you do or if your comment above is about true single-payer health care--we could probably argue that point for the next six administrations and not agree. I'm not making the statement as a point to debate, but as one of the reasons for my argument. I don't need to justify added government expenditure if I think that there will be reduced government expenditure.
     
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  3. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    That too. ^
     
  4. chicagoliz

    chicagoliz Contributor Contributor

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    It's really not the same. The tea partiers are not tolerant of dissent even within their own ranks. This is part of why the GOP is moving even further to the right and is even less willing to do anything that could be seen as compromise. Barry Goldwater was famously apprehensive about this group and his warning has proved sadly prescient.
     
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  5. EdFromNY

    EdFromNY Hope to improve with age Supporter Contributor

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    That is true only if you believe that government can finance health care more efficiently than the current system, and if one ignores not only the higher health risks in the group of previously uninsured individuals, but also the high costs of administering a system of mandatory coverage enforced in part through oversight of insurers and in part through tax penalties and with numerous jury-rigged simulations of free-market coverage.

    That said, my previously stated points about the sorry state of our economy lead me to conclude that those are what should have been the priority in 2008 and must be now.
     
  6. Robert_S

    Robert_S Senior Member

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    It doesn't work like that for paint. White light is all colors in equal distribution creating random frequencies.

    White light is the equivalent of white noise, for light.
     
  7. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Yeah, I pretty much do. :) That's just how bad I believe the current system is. When I know that many diabetics can't afford to test their blood sugar regularly, that leads me to believe that there are probably many other well-understood and cheaply manageable conditions that will be managed under the new system, instead of being allowed to deteriorate to life-threatening and very expensive situations. And that's even without the fact that people with well-managed conditions are much more likely to be able to work and care for themselves, rather than drawing disability or other benefits.
     
  8. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    While Medicare has it's problems, I don't think one of them is being less efficient that the private insurance industry once you control for the private industry ripping people off and maximizing profit not efficient care. Every country with a national health insurance spends less and gets more than we do. How can you ignore that evidence?

    And you come back to mandatory coverage. Yeah, stop the deadbeats from gambling with other people's money.

    I wonder if anyone here is aware a fair number of Progressives see the ACA as a total giveaway to the private insurance industry?
     
  9. erebh

    erebh Banned Contributor

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    Why? Then America wouldn't have been embarrassed by Sarah Palinsky :D
     
  10. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I certainly think that single payer would be far, far cheaper for us all. As I see it, ACA is a way to get health care to people while still paying the insurance industry the money they feel they're entitled to by natural law.
     
  11. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    The whole false equivalency argument is tiring. It frustrates me that the Democratic Party is as entrenched in the world of fundraising and money influence, maybe almost as much as the Republican Party is, but there are still some differences between other aspects of the parties that are not insignificant.
     
  12. minstrel

    minstrel Leader of the Insquirrelgency Supporter Contributor

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    In terms of ideology, I prefer Warren to Clinton. In terms of experience, I prefer Clinton to Warren.

    If the Republicans were anything like the Eisenhower Republicans, I could give them a look, too. But they're not - they're controlled by the Tea Party.

    But I have a special interest. I'm gay, and there's no way in hell I could ever vote for a party that denies my right to exist.
     
  13. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    I'm hoping it's a step on the way to an evidence based approach, aka single non-profit payer. For myself I belong to a non-profit HMO. It's the best I can do in the meantime.
     
  14. minstrel

    minstrel Leader of the Insquirrelgency Supporter Contributor

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    But Russia would border Canada, and Canada might have become part of the Soviet Union ... terrifying. Nightmarish. Please don't put those thoughts in my head.

    :eek::oops:
     
  15. erebh

    erebh Banned Contributor

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    but Minstrelski... you'd have cheap black-out blinds!
     
  16. EdFromNY

    EdFromNY Hope to improve with age Supporter Contributor

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    I'm not going to get into this with you, Ginger. I spent most of my career in the life/health insurance industry, including 10 years in claims administration. I can tell you that providing health coverage with no ability to underwrite is more expensive than providing health coverage with the ability to underwrite. Denying coverage to those who have selected against the insurer reduces costs, prohibiting the practice increases them. These are facts.

    As usual, you are trying to change the subject, in this case from what our economy can and cannot support to "insurance companies ripping people off". I'm not going to get into it because it was never my intention to see yet another thread hijacked. But a good many practices that have been pilloried as "insurance companies ripping people off" - anti-selection, substandard risks, denial for pre-existing conditions (related to anti-selection), coverage limitation riders - were necessary in order for insurers - any insurers - to remain viable.
     
  17. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    And I've spent my career in health care administration.

    So, maybe after I finish my sci-fi story contest entry I'll revisit this. In the mean time, you aren't talking to someone who doesn't know the issues. You are welcome to come to a different conclusion, but "not going to get into this with you" suggests from the get go you don't respect the fact I also have knowledge of the issues.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2013
  18. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    People who think a GOP president would institute a theocracy are similar to those who think Obama is a secret Muslim and also somehow a socialist. Reasoned debate seems to be lost. Everything has to be the end of the world.
     
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  19. EdFromNY

    EdFromNY Hope to improve with age Supporter Contributor

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    Based on what you've posted in the past, my understanding is that your career has been in nursing. I would therefore defer to you in any discussion related to the provision of nursing care, and would tend to do so on medical issues, generally. However, unless you've actually worked in the insurance industry, underwritten policies, processed claims, worked with actuaries on reserve calculations, analyzed reinsurance agreements, prepared analyses breaking out investment gain, underwriting gain and morbidity gain from insurance P&Ls and written papers advising the federal government on the nature and proper taxation of group insurance, I'd suggest that you might want to lean on the side of caution on this.
     
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  20. chicagoliz

    chicagoliz Contributor Contributor

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    It's really not. You can look at the recent statewide races in Virginia. The candidate for governor actually tried to get oral sex to be made illegal, even between heterosexual, married couples. (And this, from the party that allegedly wants "less government.") I won't even get into his involvement in the attempted forced transvaginal ultrasounds he wanted to implement to punish women who sought abortions. The Lt. Governor candidate had declared yoga a tool of the devil and yoga enthusiasts were satan worshipers. The candidate for A.G., as a state representative, introduced a bill that would have required any woman who suffered a miscarriage, at any point in her pregnancy, to notify the police. I won't even get into how asinine that would be.

    These guys had homeschool groups from all over the nation campaigning for them (even the famous Duggars appeared in Virginia to campaign for these candidates. If you aren't familiar with the Duggars, google them and the Quiverfull movement, which does not hide the fact that they want their worldview codified into law.) They all had campaign ties to Patrick Henry College, which is a "college" designed to be a "safe" place for people who have homeschooled on religious grounds to send their kids. It is intended to serve as a training ground for these kids to later become a formidable political force, and many, many, political appointments from the Bush administration came from this school.

    It's nice, but simplistic, to be able to claim that both sides are the same, but if you really look at what's going on, it is obvious that it is simply not the case. It makes me sad that the GOP is in its current state. I really believe we need two vibrant parties that can discuss ideas and really explore all sides of various issues, and the fact that we don't have that right now does our country a real disservice.

    The problem is not so much that a full-blown theocracy would instantly result if a GOP candidate were elected. But within that party, the group that really does have that as a goal has a lot of control. Something approaching a theocracy would be approached piecemeal, with small pieces instituted at a time -- putting more religion in schools and public places, disenfranchising voters, taking away women's rights, working for discrimination against gay people, etc. And more subtle but wide-ranging world-wide effects, such as tying funding for AIDS relief to wasting time on abstinence-only programs, or taking away public health funds for poor countries that allow abortion. The Bush administration, in hiring city planners for the "rebuilding" of Iraq had litmus tests for things like abortion -- for jobs that had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with abortion, or women's health. Interference in these kinds of programs makes them less effective.

    The people who claim Obama is a socialist don't know what socialism is, and they can be easily dismissed. The American Socialist party wishes he were a socialist. And the ludicrous claim that he is a secret Muslim and that this somehow makes him the anti-Christ are just not even worthy of discussion.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2013
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  21. chicagoliz

    chicagoliz Contributor Contributor

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    Yes, I can't stand the false equivalency argument, and it plays out in the media all the time. There aren't always two sides to an issue, and just because someone out there disagrees with something doesn't mean that there is genuine disagreement and legitimate debate about that issue.

    I'm not under any delusions that the Democrats are perfect or have all the answers. Yes, there are entrenched special interests that have captured both the Democrats and Republicans. (Although the SCOTUS decision on Citizens United only served to exacerbate the problem.) But the frightening goals of the GOP right now are a real threat not only to progress, but to even the status quo. It is a problem that we really only have the Democrats to work with, because merely being sane is not really enough of a commonality to ensure that good policy will result. But right now we have to fight against being dragged into the dark ages, and unfortunately, that means that we can't work on genuinely doing something about some of the big problems we have right now. Just because we can't make everything as close to perfect as we can doesn't mean we just throw up our hands, give up, and allow a minority of folks to institute their own belief system on the entire country, and to an extent, the world.
     
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  22. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    I knew I should have tweaked that confusing label. First off, a lot of nurses are in health care administration so the terms are not mutually exclusive. Second, I'm in private practice which I own. I've had the practice since 1992, so I think being the owner/sole proprietor qualifies as administration.

    But I really didn't mean health care administration in the usual sense, I meant I was on the provider side. On the other hand, I'm not just on the provider side, I do bill clients and while I've built a practice that allows me to bill employers and not third party payers, I had a choice and I certainly understand the health care finance side of the business.
     
  23. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    Just to add a bit to what @chicagoliz posted, you've posted a false dichotomy. I didn't have to fear Bush turning the country into a theocracy to be concerned that he did some serious chipping away at the separation of church and state. And it's not only the laws against gays and women's health choices, Bush also ordered NASA spokespersons to stop talking about anything in public that contradicted Biblical Creationism. Park Rangers at the Grand Canyon were told when talking to tourists to consider equally Noah's Flood as the source for the canyon's creation along side geological science.

    And on the local level there's been a serious attempt in some districts to replace school boards with members who would vote to put Intelligent Design theories that are unscientific in public school science classes. For a summary read the judges ruling in Kitzmiller v Dover School District (maybe you are already familiar with it). You surely recall the panel of GOP candidates in the 2012 primary that all raised their hands when asked if they doubted evolution theory.
     
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  24. EdFromNY

    EdFromNY Hope to improve with age Supporter Contributor

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    Understanding the health care finance side of your provider business does not equate to understanding the details of how a health insurance business operates. Some of those details were included in the part of my post that you didn't quote.
     
  25. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    This is the kind of thinking that I'm talking about that is similar to the "Obama is a Kenyan Muslim" or "Obama is a Rabid Socialist" or maybe even "Obama is the Antichrist" rhetoric you hear from the same kind of people on the other side of the aisle. The two parties that we have benefit themselves and their special interests, and it is very much in their interest for the public to buy into the kind of fear-mongering displayed above and on the right. It's exactly how enough people need to think to maintain the status quo.

    The funny thing is, if you point this out to people on the left making these kind of statements, they won't believe it any more than if you point it out to a Birther you're likely to sway them. The people on each side can sure pick it out in the opposition, but they can't recognize it in themselves.

    It's a very short-sighted way of looking at things, and more than that is it a viewpoint that is guaranteed to benefit only the special interests and career politicians that now dominate the political landscape.
     
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