What are some books you'd recommend reading?

Discussion in 'Discussion of Published Works' started by TK, Jun 17, 2021.

  1. Catriona Grace

    Catriona Grace Mind the thorns Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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    I'm reading The Three Musketeers for at least the third or fourth time. It is so much fun. Decades ago, I found a fancy copy complete with decorated sleeve box at the library book sale. Bought it because I liked the way it looked (judged a book by its cover that time) and ended up thoroughly enjoying the book when I didn't really expect to do so.
     
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  2. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    I remember enjoying the story when I read it, and I love the pair of movies (The Three Musketeers and The Four Musketeers) directed by Richard Lester and starring Michael York, Oliver Reed, Charlton Heston and Raquel Welch. The movies famously changed the way sword fighting was done in films, from the silly swashbuckling cliches of the old Robin Hood movies (rhythmically bashing swords together again and again and shouting "Hah!") to something far more realistic. It was extremely athletic and involved street fighting techniques like punching, kicking, swatting with a coat, and anything else that could give an advantage.
     
  3. Michael Prince

    Michael Prince Member

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    My fav book is Eye Candy by R.L. Stine, 2004, female 1st-person horror thriller. If you're a fan of Stine's masterful brand of horror (Goosebumps, Fear Street, Point Horror), you should really pick this up. It's about a hot blonde in NY dealing with sinister stalkers. A guy I used to know said shit jokes are shit jokes, yeah, all apart from this one: "Ass candy, coming out of my asshole!"
     
  4. Vince Higgins

    Vince Higgins Curmudgeon. Contributor

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    I just spit out a piece of humor that was inspired by a book I read years ago, and some recent events concerning a family member.

    White Fang by Jack London.

    Won't spoil it now, but hope to post it in the humorous short story workshop in a day or two. Not Ha Ha funny, but a humorous take on that classic.
     
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  5. JohnKing

    JohnKing New Member

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    "Ready player One"just finished - it`s amazingly detailed.
     
  6. TK

    TK Active Member

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    Currently just finished The Black Stallion by Walter Farley, loved the book and I think it could have probably stopped describing the horse so plentifully. :)
     
  7. Rad Scribbler

    Rad Scribbler Faber est suae quisque fortunae Contributor

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    Long Walk to Freedom - Autobiography of Nelson Mandela.
     
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  8. Jlivy3

    Jlivy3 Active Member

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    The fight directors name was William Hobbs! Local library is having a fest showing some of his movies. Both Musketeers movies,
    Robin and Marian, and The Duellists among them.
     
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  9. Rake

    Rake Member

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    I'll put forward two Steven King books leaving aside the horror angle.
    • The Shining. - forgetting the movie, this book has a couple of great reveals that the movie doesn't do justice. The intrigue behind Danny and his gift, is the best element in the story and those reveals are some of the best handled in any story I can think of. Also of note is the way he introduces the Outlook. Very elegant and well handled - great reference for how to go about presenting an environment.
    • IT - This is a fantastic book for exploring a creative structure. Basically it is a series of short stories that is bound together with an overall story ark. That might not be something particularly new but I cannot think of a novel that does it better. The way is moves and stitches the book together would normally drive me nuts but its handled so well I'm just amazed at how clever he has been. It's kind of like architecture that doesn't hide how it's been put together, but rather makes a feature of it. The other element that would normally put me off is the flashback. Normally flashbacks annoy me as a cheap use for backstory. I prefer my tales more liner, but this is one of the few times I've seen it pulled off to add to the story rather than interrupt it. Really well written by a great author at his best.
     
  10. Anton Anderson

    Anton Anderson New Member

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    Can you suggest some good modern or modern-ish books about "person vs society" or "person vs self?" It would be even better to find books about "person vs (society + self)"
     
  11. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    Can you be a little more specific about what you mean? Are you talking about the axiom "Man against man, man against nature, man against himself," which I've heard described as the three basic plots? Or are you talking more about someone rebelling against their society?

    Man against himself refers to an inner conflict, where there's no external antagonist, or more likely the external antagonist is symbolic of the inner problem the MC must rise above. Man against nature and man against man are external conflicts. I suppose there's room for 'man against society' in between too, why not? That sounds like it would involve both external and internal conflict, because it's about the individual's struggle to remain or to become independent. And yet we rely on society, without it we can't function very well if at all. A struggle to declare or establish your independence would be self-development, the development (through crisis and conflict) of a new maturity or a new self-reliance, a casting away of dependence. We all begin dependent as children, and many people remain that way all their lives. Some reach a level of interdependence, when you rely on someone else and your society without being completley dependent on them, and hopefully the other person does the same.

    But then there are the hardcore independents, who want to prove they can make it entirely on ther own, like Robinson Crusoe (even he had his Man Friday). But often reaching an adult level of independence does require an exaggerated struggle, and a period of casting it all away, a clearing of the arena, a symbolic death in order for the resurrection to occur as a new person. This is what initiation rituals are for. The young men needed to go through a powerful event that made them and everyone else realize they're no longer dependent children, and from that event onward they would be treated as men rather than as boys. Coming of age stories are often structured as some kind of initiation ritual.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2023
  12. Anton Anderson

    Anton Anderson New Member

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    Yes, this is exactly what I am talking about. Sorry, I shouldn't have presumed that you would have no doubts about what I meant. I know several books about it, but they are old. I am looking for something more modern.
     
  13. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    If you've read books about it, you know more than I do. I've just heard the phrase a few times. As for books, are you looking for writing-specific books, or books dealing with individuating from a society?

    I know a few things related to that on a psychological level, if that's relevant, but none of them would be specifically on that topic. More like bits and pieces of information spread across many books. My main sources would be books dealing with initiation rituals (which is literally individuating from dependence on your parents) or parts of certain books by Carl Jung on Individuation in general, though he only rarely mentioned it in relation to society directly, he spoke more about it in general, in terms of developing psychological maturity and independence. You could doubtless find good info on these subjects online with a few searches.

    But really you could find inspiration and related ideas on message boards etc where people discuss things that are considered socially unacceptable, like 'red pilling', anti-vaxers, men's rights groups, and etc. Maybe even libertarianism, which is basically a doing-away with society (at least government). Or look into the idea of living off-grid and prepping. But all of these would be a very general and peripheral way to look into it, aimed at getting some insight into the attitudes and ideas of people who go their own way. I think I would look into books on initiation rituals and the lack of them in modern society. And maybe the split between those who want safety and those who want freedom.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2023
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  14. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    Also look into individuation without adding the name Jung. There's a lot of good info out there that isn't strictly psychological.
     
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  15. Anton Anderson

    Anton Anderson New Member

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    By "writing books" do you mean books that describe how to write? They are useful, sure, but their use is limited. I also need actual stories (fiction or non-fiction) For example, a writing book will tell me about the importance of an inciting incident, but to really understand it I need to read an actual book that uses it, or write a few books on my own, each time improving my technique.

    I will look into Carl Jung and individuation, thank you.

    And no, for my current WIP doesn't deal with individuating from society. On the contrary. The main character starts as a conformist, but society changes faster than him, so by the end of the book he should be on the very edge of rejecting that society on moral and intellectual grounds. I try to figure out how to bring him to the edge at the right moment, not faster or slower, and how to make it powerful and believable enough.
     
  16. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    Yes, I meant are you looking for books specifically teaching how to write about man versus society. I don't know of any.

    It sounds like it's about the beginning of individuating from society, starting from a point when he's a full conformist. The book details the early stages of the movement.

    A question, mostly out of curiosity—will your portagonist be completley alone in his moving away from social conventions, or is there a small anti-establishment group? I realized when I listed my suggestions above that in each case there's a small group aligned against the larger collectivist mass of society, but in each case the society pushes mindless adherence to its principles, and the ones going agaisnt it think outside of that box. Really they're being punished for non-conformity.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2023
  17. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    This looks like a very good article about it: What Is Individuation?

    Often stories of this type are also coming-of-age stories, since adolescence is a minefield of individuation in a time when people are being pushed into conformity in order to get a good job etc.

    Here's one that goes into much more specific detail about Jung's theories: Jung and his Individuation Process

    It may or may not be helpful, you're probably looking more for the general ideas concerning individuation.

    Here's a fairly decent article on initiation: Initiation rites

    It doesn't really go into enough detail on certain issues. Initiation is a passage from being a dependent child to being an adult, and once a person has gone through the rituals (in a society that still has them) everyone sees them as adults now. It's a ritual joining of society as an adult, and a separation from the mother as a dependent child at the same time. Our modern societies don't really have such rituals anymore, instead we have very watered-down versions like high-school and college graduation. But those completely fail to teach how to function as an adult, and there's no symbolic separation rituals or tests of courage that are needed to provide the full sense of separation from the mother.

    Since we have no such rituals anymore many people find themselves remaining dependent all their lives, or simply switching dependence from the mother (or parents) to a husband or wife. I'll see if I can find better articles, but I suspect books might be necessary to really get a full picture of the importance of courage tests and rituals in individuation. I suspect part of the reason we've lost them is because lacking such rituals keeps people dependent, which makes them much easier to control for both government and companies. A dependent employee is much easier to manipulate than a fearless one who thinks for himself and distrusts authority.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2023
  18. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    Bingo! Incredible luck!
    Probably one of the best books ever written on the subject. And it's free on Archive.org. Most of their copies are to 'Borrow', which means you have to set up an account (free, but a lot of hassle) and then renew the book every hour, which is incredibly annoying. For some reason this particular version is free to download or read onsite.

    Oh, I've added to the above post in case you already saw it.
     
  19. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    It helps to understand that what they considered sacred or divine, is what today we consider psycholgical. The sacred is the psyche. This was Jung's discovery, and it's extremely helpful to keep it in mind, otherwise it all seems too far removed and incomprehensible, as if it's just ridiculous made-up stuff or primitive superstition. But though it may be hard to understand it this way today, when we have science and rational materialism, they expressed their greatest wisdom in the form of myths and stories about gods and heroes. They weren't able to understand it in modern materialist terms, but they knew there was some great and deep wisdom, that they could express through myths. So that's how they did it.
     
  20. Anton Anderson

    Anton Anderson New Member

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    Wow, that's a lot of articles you've found! Thank you!
    While the word "establishment" may mean social conventions, it can also mean the government and its plan for the citizens. I mean both, since the established social convention was to mostly ignore what the government was doing, which the protagonist can not accept, and the government was doing evil, which he can not accept also.

    Yes, the majority of citizens didn't like where the government is heading in my book, but they rarely reflect on their life, so the government was mostly free to tighten the grip as long as they are careful. The slowly boiling frog, so to speak. Plus, they have no leader. So, they react only to the most egregious actions of the government, preferring to not notice everything else. They discuss problems among themselves, but almost never make their opinion widely known, so their existence is a surprise for the protagonist.

    So, you may say that there is a group of people the protagonist can talk to, but not really.
    He can never accept the fact that they sit idle while the government tightens its grip, so he would never join them.
    And he never accepts the fact that his city has a systematic problem and not a simple mismanagement of a few ministers. For the majority of his life, he believed that the government can do no evil and consisted of strictly benevolent people worthy only of respect and obedience. Well, he is supposed to accept the existence of the systematic problem by the very end of the book, but not sooner.

    I am just trying to figure out how to pace his realization well, and how to make it powerful and believable.
     
  21. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    And now I believe may be the perfect time for a writing-specific concept:
    I think her advice about the lie people believe and the truth they need to accept in order to complete their arc might be very helpful here. She goes into pretty good detail about it on her blog, but you might want to also get her book about character arcs, where she goes into much more detail. She lays out a clear progression from being completely invested in the lie, through several stages, to finally understanding it was a lie and realizing what the character's real truth is, who he really is and what he must do. I think it can help structure the book beautifully.

    It sounds like you're writing a positive change character arc, so I would follow that path on her blog, she has a series of entries dealing with it.
     
  22. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    Did you say this is the first book in a series? I think you did, or I imagined you did. But it does sound like a first in a series, so I think you can have the character go through a full character arc shift in both the first book and the entire series. In the first book though the shift is merely from believing his lie (which is basically the same lie the entire society believes) to finally understanding and accepting that he can't live with that lie and must devote his life to fighting against the government (if I understand that correctly), and the rest of the series details his efforts to do so.

    I don't think I said that right. What I mean is there's a larger character arc laid out in the entire series, but there's also a character arc in each story, consisting of a part of the larger arc. In each small arc he can go through the process of beginning by believing a lie and gradually coming to understand and accept his truth (they would be different lies each time, parts of the big lie of the entire character arc). But I'm probably only struggling to say what you already know.

    And one more piece of writing-specific advice, which is more of a product endorsement I suppose—I really like a piece of software called Plottr. It lets you plot character arcs for individual stories and also for an entire series. I'm sure there are others that do it, and some might be better, but I'm not familiar with those. One thing I really like about Plottr is that you can buy the software outright and not have to pay ongoing rental fees indefinitely. That's getting to be a rarity these days.
    I think the price has gone up to around $120 now, or is going to soon. That's for lifetime ownership. I find it extremely helpful for plotting, especially a series (not that I've actually written or plotted a series, but I did begin to lay out a trilogy with it).
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2023
  23. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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  24. Anton Anderson

    Anton Anderson New Member

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    Thank you for the link!
    No, this is the second book of the series. And no, I have no desire to make a several-books-long character arc for this character. There should be such arcs for some other characters, but not for the main one of the second book. Why? Because I am tired and want to move on from him. This book takes way too long.
     
  25. w. bogart

    w. bogart Contributor Contributor Blogerator

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    Operation Pineapple Express might fit your bill. A small group from the special ops community were upset about the Afghans they worked with, were not being brought out with the American withdrawal. So they set up their own system to help those folks get out of country. More men vs society I would say.
     

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