what are the differences between evil villains a just plain jerks

Discussion in 'Character Development' started by darkbeetlebot, Mar 17, 2012.

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  1. mcpout

    mcpout New Member

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    lol reading it back my answer was a bit long winded there wasn't it?
     
  2. art

    art Contributor Contributor

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    This idea that we must withold moral judgement (which is in itself a moral judgement), and that cultural relativism renders such discussions as these largely otiose is misguided, I fancy.

    ‘Of course, I think stoning women is an abomination, and you wouldn’t catch me doing it, but in country x it’s fine. It’s a funny old world ain’t it?”

    This does not mean that Country x thinks causing people pain and suffering is a positive good.

    It is regarded as a punishment in country X. Punishment is doing to others what they would rather have not done to them. (Lotsa luck, incidentally, finding a culture where punishment consists in giving the offender chocolates and a free pass to the local multiplex). It is the infliction of something that under other circumstances would be regarded as a bad thing.

    That stoning goes on in country x, indicates only (perhaps) that country x places more weight on the importance of certain religious or cultural injunctions than we might do in similar circumstances.

    There are, absolutely, certain shared human values which obtain everywhere.

    So, Trilby’s definition of evil/ wickedness seems to me entirely fitting.
     
  3. Mallory

    Mallory Contributor Contributor

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    When it comes to large-scale evils -- such as the Holocaust and slavery -- I think it's less a matter of one person being evil, and more a matter of 1000s of idiot sheeple who don't think for themselves and go blindly along with authority. For example, although Hitler orchestrated the Holocaust, it couldn't have happened without all the Gestapo officers, concentration camp employees and snitches who willingly helped. Some honestly believed they were in the right, others were morally ambiguous or unable to think for themselves and just went with the flow, and others knew it was wrong but were too afraid to resist. Of course, some of them WERE just sadistic and wanted jobs that allowed them to abuse their power, but people have jobs like this today.

    Therefore, for this question, I'm going to focus on person-on-person incidents rather than on global ones, because the latter have far more dynamics at play than just "evil vs. jerk."

    To me, a "jerk" is an asshole on the surface, but still has empathy and concern deep down and wouldn't go out of their way to harm someone for fun. For example, a jerk might make sexist comments to make a female coworker uncomfortable, but wouldn't premeditate to kidnap, rape and dismember her, the way an "evil" person would. A jerk might find it fun to throw pebbles at stray animals, but wouldn't take it to the extreme and torture it in a severe, prolonged manner.

    I think it's also a matter of empathy or lack thereof. A non-evil jerk might pick on someone, but would help them if they were severely hurt or upset, or would at least show a nicer side and try to do something to help. "Evil" brings to mind someone who has absolutely no concern for others in any context.

    The question as to whether pure evil exists is debatable for me, but in this context, I associate "evil" with "sociopath."
     
  4. Islander

    Islander Contributor Contributor

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    I think an evil villain is purposeful, while a jerk just gives in to their impulses of malice. The jerk's malice is much more shallow - maybe they don't think what they're doing is so serious.
     
  5. lesley_85

    lesley_85 New Member

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    I've read some of the above posts but not all so I may be repeating something that's already come up. Evil is more to do with intention. I could hurt you, but if I didn't mean to do it am I truly evil? Then again, someone may intend to kill someone but could still be just a jerk. Think of gang violence. Some people are so desensitised to violence that they can not fully comprehend what taking someone's life means. As for the mental illness aspect, some people think that sociopaths (possible psychopaths) are born evil. I think it's more of a case by case thing. I taught a 12 year old sociopath and I thought he was lovely. Ted Bundy was a diagnosed as a sociopath yet he thought that he was doing the right thing. So does that make him evil. I totally agree with the above post from Ettina, but if you want to go into more detail you have to get right into your "villain's" head. Motive, intention and awareness of what they are doing to another human being. Think "Prom Night" the movie, if you've seen it. That villain is straight up tapped, not truly evil. Evil is = I want to hurt you, I'm going to hurt you, I'm enjoying hurting you. And finally, I have no remorse from having hurt you.
     
  6. CrimsonReaper

    CrimsonReaper Active Member

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    Ultimately the difference between a villain and a thug/jerk is STYLE.

    A common jerk you just hate. He gets in the way. He hurts kids cause he is pathetic.

    The villain draws you in. Makes you understand or at least on some level be fascinated by their actions. He makes you route for him while he flays his enemy's children alive.
     
  7. Gumdart

    Gumdart New Member

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    I don't think that a true villain could ever have been a 'jerk'. A proper villain is someone who premeditates crime or attacks and they are probably far more intelligent that 'jerks'. I also don't think that you can be pure evil, there are extremes of evil but I think a character that is totally consumer by evil would either turn out seeming two dimensional and motive-less or else would have been killed as a result of their evil much earlier in life. I think the best you could get to is possibly someone like The Joker in The Dark Knight. He is purely motivated by chaos and insanity which makes him far more scary and 'evil' than say The Emperor from Star Wars who is capable of rational though and plotting which makes him seem, in my eyes, less of a threat.
     
  8. Ultermarto

    Ultermarto New Member

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    Evil is a difficult thing to define, when clearly every human being on the planet has believed themselves to be 'good' (unless ... they're neurotic). Maybe that's the most shocking kind of evil, the kind that thinks itself compassionate.
     
  9. Mordred

    Mordred New Member

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    Being mean is an act centered only for the self who does not care about what others may feel.

    Being evil can show an act of kindness and compassion at the same time plotting a scheme for his own glory. He can be mean or he can be good depends on how is best to lure his victim.

    But on the other hand...

    Nothing, they are both bad choices and actions judged to be bad by a greater "good" society. But if you must actually have a difference, mean is an action that is recognized and evil is the description of ones nature. If I am mean to you, you may label me as an evil person.

    Then again...

    ~Mordred
     
  10. heyitsmary

    heyitsmary New Member

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    To me, someone who is just a jerk (and not evil or a villain) has redeeming qualities with which the reader can identify. They would also most likely have good intentions, although some very bad things have been done with good intentions. But I guess that's what makes them a jerk as opposed to a good guy.
     
  11. Cogito

    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

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    The terms "being mean" and "being vulgar" have very similar etymology. Both vulgar and mean are roughly synonymous with common or ordinary. They associate behavior with peasants or bumpkins. It's behavior that is beneath "civilized" folk.

    Evil, on the other hand, has no basis other than pure, unadulterated malice.
     
  12. Vilku

    Vilku New Member

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    100 jerks are sent to an IQ test, they come as the avarage iq being 80.
    evil villains have the same, coming out with 110.

    then both are sent to an EQ test, jerks coming off with 60 avarage. (making them the equivalent of mentally impaired in emotion section of brain.)
    evil villains.. they.. uh, came off the charts. in the down direction. not viable for any score. equivalent of psychopathy/sociopathy.

    also jerks often score high in psychological tests directed at unprincipled and fanatic section of narcissistic personality disorder. (meaning the people without self esteem.. untill *PUF*, they create it by spreading misfortune.)
     
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  13. Drusilla

    Drusilla Active Member

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    I think it has more to do with what role they play in the story. A plain "jerk" can be just as hurtful as the "villain", there and then, but he or she will not play the same role in the story as the villain. Villains often do more things than being mean. They often want to stop the main character in some way or another; often more serious in the way a jerk would want to stop the character.
    But one story's villain can be another story's jerk, and vice versa.

    Vilku, a jerk can actually have an IQ of 110 or more. There are many reasons to why people can be a jerk.
     
  14. Vilku

    Vilku New Member

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    neh, theres only two ways to become a jerk.
    inability to resist mental laziness of your responsibility to think what consequences your actions have which equals losing empathy.
    and b, inability to resist evil due to being weakminded.

    both options count as a significant iq loss, which is why i said 80 is the _avarage_ not some specific result.

    meaning yeess you could have 110 while the avarage still stays 80.

    but its the avarage IQ of us non-jerks who have empathy to bring up the avarage IQ being 100 which is why them in comparison counts only as 80.
     
  15. Amy Newcomer

    Amy Newcomer New Member

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    There is no hope for redemption for a villain. To me it's not so much the magnitude of actions, it's the inner person. To show a villain you have to see some of his innermost thoughts. Why does he commit these crimes, why does he kill? This is a person with no thought for another life, who would kill without wincing. The contrast of this would be someone who hesitates, is scared to kill, kills out of fear. A villain doesn't have to enjoy killing, but he at least has to have no thought of worry or bother. Some of the greatest villains Al Copone, for one thought themselves to be a benefactors to society, they thought of themselves as innocent, misunderstood people who did not deserve punishment, based on their mass crimes they clearly were disillusion, and lived in their own little world. It's actually quite an interesting topic to read about. These criminals would kill without thought, yet they still felt justified in their mind. I'm not sure all novels go this route of thinking, usually the idea is a villain gets pleasure out of killing, but in reality it's just complete selfishness and insanity. So the question is. how far into selfishness and insanity would you like to take him or her?
     
  16. The Tourist

    The Tourist Banned

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    I believe there is only one face of evil. It is a merciless deliberate act. As for idiots and jerks, I think they are the clueless minions of evil, who by the way will also know evil when their usefulness is over.
     
  17. Cogito

    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

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    Idiots and jerks aren't always the tools,
    sometimes they are leaderless fools.
     
  18. Ruchi Kandpal

    Ruchi Kandpal New Member

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    Basic Difference

    Evil people are good on the face. But behind the back they are stingy and biting. Whereas, the jerks they tend to hurt on the face. They don't care about how one feels.:cool:
    let me tell you.
    Example:
    You are wearing an old fashioned dress.

    Jerks comments:
    'Ugh, disgusting dress! Maybe it's the best dress in your closet!' :D

    Master Evil comments:
    'Beautiful dress. Why don't you wear it often. It suits you!' *fake smile* :)

    So actually the evil man, is trying to make you look pathetic by faking a nice comment. A jerk will tell you on the face, though with added spiciness.

    Bad example, eh?!
     
  19. Jonathan Pushkin

    Jonathan Pushkin Member

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    Same difference between Narcissists and psychopaths. One is uniintentionally evil, the other is gleefully evil.
     
  20. Jonathan Pushkin

    Jonathan Pushkin Member

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    I think jerks just get in the way. They can qualify as anti heroes, or serve well in twists. The protagonist can be a jerk. Depends on the purpose of the character. There are many types of villains. All Villains are jerks, but the classic is usually calculating, manipulating, intelligent, ambitious, ruthless. A Jerk is usually someone with an attitude problem or who does stupid things that get in the protagonists way. Usually they are self serving with no ambition, but they can be a villain if they become a villain.
     
  21. xhawkeyex

    xhawkeyex New Member

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    Well, for Jerk, as an example, I'll use the name Bob. Now for a jerk, Bob is only focused on Bob, and what Bob wants. Usually jerks are just plain mean because they CAN be.
    For evil, it is actually quite different. An evil person can be really nice to you, or the person can be tantalizing. A character doesn't have to be a "Jerk" to be evil, it just needs a different way of looking at things.
     
  22. Mjolnir

    Mjolnir New Member

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    This question is somewhat deceptive. You're asking for a comparison of varying degrees of evil. People can, and I'm sure have, argue this respective definitions of these terms and how they relate for years without reaching a solid conclusion. However, for the purposes of creating an "evil" character none of that really matters. When it comes to writing, a villain is simply a character that directly opposes your protagonist. Therefore your focus shouldn't be on how to make your character as evil as possible, but rather to make a character that provides the most effective and efficient obstacle between your protagonist and his/her goals. It's really a matter of perspective.

    For example, let's look a the character of the violent drunk. To his neighbors he is a nuisance, a disturbance to their daily routine, but not an obstacle. His drunken tirades are obnoxious but don't impede them from achieving their life goals. To them he is a just a jerk. However, to his six year old son, whom he regularly beats, that same character becomes more than just a passing annoyance. Now he is in direct opposition to the needs of the main character (the son). Now he is truly a villain in every sense of the word.

    So, the answer to your question is, that depends. It depends on what kind of story you are wring, it depends on who your protagonist is and what he is trying to achieve. Answer these questions and devising an appropriate villain should be be no problem. Just make sure that your villain is believable and proportionate to your main character. Hope that's helpful.
     
  23. rubisco

    rubisco Member

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    In my opinion, it's all about the motive and background of the character. I would say jerks act in reaction to some rejection of his or her self. They want to hurt someone because they themselves got hurt. The person wouldn't be acting that way if that person never got rejected or hurt.

    Pure evil acts evily (is that a word? well, it is now, bam) with no regard to how people treat the person. They still act evil regardless of getting everything they could ever possibly dream. Motive is no longer an issue, it is a permanent character trait. No matter what happens, the person will act evil. That would be PURE evil, in my opinion. Making people's life's miserable just because they can.
     

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