I was trying to state it simply. So between these short few chapters. The MC wants that perfect girl "What you want, you cannot have" basis. The girl he likes well obviously she is out of his league so he gets "Friendzoned". The girl co-worker likes him but he is good friends with her but MC is too blind to see that. I wasn't implying friendship with a woman is valueless but for a guy trying to date a woman he likes but she doesn't want to be with him. So she gives him the line "I just want to be friends" is what I mean by friend zoned. There is always jokes about it online in memes like in Game of Thrones, the STD skin dude trying to get with Queen of Dragons. The co-worker guy is putting pressure on him to just get with a girl because everyone is starting to think he is a virgin. In reality, co-worker guy bullsh!ts about getting with woman to make himself look good because of his poor ego. The characters he has more dialogue at the start are guys, so I re-worked it having more dialogue with the female co-worker that likes him. Anyways, it was an unnecessary drama that becomes totally irrelevant to the core of the story, this is why I made it past memories for the MC.
Forgive the quick derail but I can't stand this term. Friends become more than friends all the time. That's the entire premise of When Harry Met Sally. The person, as he or she was, didn't have any more or less of a chance with the other person before they became "friends." Maybe that person, who didn't have a chance to begin with, thought that being friends first would fix this, but all that really amounts to is that they thought they had a chance when they in actuality did not. There's no zone, here, just being mistaken about one's mating potential.
Do you even need those memories, or could you move past them? It sounds like very-young-male-centered sexual politics, which may put off everybody but very young males.
Your innocence is like a fragile flower that blooms fresh every day... only to be crushed under the boots of some asshole with a grudge against humanity.
Yeah. I mean... my books are trash, for sure. I'm a ho. But the entire genre is "deplorable"? Tsk, tsk. I'm offended on the behalf of all the respectable writers out there.
Says the person doing all the name calling. Romance genre statistically doesn't matter to most males, so things take care of themselves. The OP in this case is a male writing sci fi, so romance actually doesn't matter in this case. I actually explained this already to Chickenfreak a few posts back. Please no more name calling or instigating. In fact everyone here seems to be doing ok up til now. We're all just trying to have a conversation here. Thanks.
In Children's Literature, I learned that boys gravitate toward adventure, action, and stories rooted in real life. Less character building and more world building. More male characters than females Girls gravitate toward problems that are neatly solved, the idea of romance, happy endings, magical/fastastical adventures, and deeper meanings. This is not to say that boys can like that too and vice versa. And growing up, this was basically my older brother and I. He liked adventure like Red Wall series, Guardians of Ga'Hoole series, and SilverWing (i cant remember what the series is called but it is like Gardians of Ga'Hoole but with bats). Growing up, I read adventures but it had a romantic element. Like, Calwyn in the Chanters of Tremaris Trilogy left her home to go on an adventure with this guy she saved, and fell in love with him along the way. I read Avon Teen Romances, and, of course, the Twilight Saga. But I feel like tastes change over time. As in HS, I enjoyed thrillers and horrors and comedies. As an adult, I'm reading a wide range of genres. One thing I didnt notice was cover art. I was reading one series where the protagonist is a woman who is a mechanic and generally kicks butt. My boss (who is a middle aged man) says "you can tell the author really wants to pull in pervy guy readers with that raunchy cover" Then I really looked at the cover, and the main character on all of the covers is looking like a sultry, tatted up vixen (when she's described in the book as average looking with one 1 tattoo and perpetually dirty hands). I'd say its a mixed bag, but I've personally never had any favorite series/books in common with a guy that wasnt a required reading
Except the OP seems to be discussing quite a bit of romance content. And romance can certainly exist in science fiction. ...And the thread title was “...look for in novels”, not “look for in science fiction novels written by men.”
I'm glad I'm not the only one who cringes over that term. There's a lot of toxic "nice guy" BS that accompanies it many times, and it sets my teeth on edge.
Obviously romance as a genre and romance as an element are two different things. Anyway, I wasn't intending to offend or for things to get too off topic. Certainly, for most genres that run a 50/50 male/female readership, there should clearly be ways to write a book that appeals to both genders .
Honestly dude, just write the damn story. This really doesn't matter that much when writing a story. While all this makes for a potentially riveting discussion, the truth is: if it's good, people will like it. If it's bad, people will not like it. If your female characters fall flat, that is not a problem for female readers, that's just a problem with the story, itself. Your characters shouldn't fall flat. If your male character doesn't like being in the "not-getting-laid" zone, that's fine. That is a genuine problem that might make for an interesting story. The story should just be what it is from a creative standpoint, modifying it with your marketing hat on always just leads to a less strong piece.
And nothing wrong with asking that question. But pardon me, you are set on gender categories or rather, on categorising via gender. If that makes it clearer. The important question you should ask about your book is not "will people of all genders/this specific gender like it?" it is "will people that enjoy this genre like it?". Yes, in the case of romance those people will predominantly be female. But do you know the demographics of your readers? Why don't you do some research about what is genre appropriate for your book, then decide if something needs changing? However, you do seem concerned about stepping on the toes of female readers. Which is a good thing since it means you're willing to look beyond your own experience. Now some females have answered to what you asked and pointed out problems and (sorry if I'm wrong) we all seem to share a view. It only seems you're not quite willing to accept the opinions you asked for. And no one said you did. It is pretty natural to unconsciously include what we know and if what you know is males interacting with males, well then that's very likely the thing you'll be writing about. No conscious decision needed. That does not mean, however, that this is the best thing for your book or cannot somehow problematic. It is a bias you need to keep in mind while writing, just as I, as a white person, for example, have to keep in mind that the majority of this planet's population isn't white. Which is fine. That's how it should be. Write what fits the story, but be aware that anyhow you write, someone will find something to criticise. It is up to you how you employ that criticism. So am I you can't start too early to learn about them though. If you don't want to confront yourself with the gender-related ones yet (which you really should), the TV Tropes Website lists a shit ton of other tropes/plot devices/etc. that'll be really helpful to you. As well as an explanation what tropes are. I get what you mean by "friendzone". You can have your MC be "friendzones", you can have them use that term, no problem. But be aware of how it will ring with your readers. No matter if this was your intention or not (and I'm not saying it was), the term and how it is commonly used does imply the value of a women's attention depends on whether she wants to fuck you or not. "You want to just be friends? Ok, bye." You don't have to mean that, you as the author don't have to believe that but it is very likely that this is how it will come across. Think of it like this: if I park my car in a no-parking zone because I overlooked the sign, it won't matter if I intended to do so or not. I'll still get a ticket. You've had female readers criticise your book but consider if it's not because women don't like action, but rather because your way of incorporating female characters is off-putting to females because it demeans their minority. So my very personal, very opinionated advice is this: try to write the best book you can, not the best selling book. Write about what you want but while you do, be aware of why you write it the way you do and if it might promote bad stereotypes of any kind. Take critique at face-value and consider it objectively before you discard or apply it.
As if..? More likely they is not stringing their words together in an entertaining fashion. 'F*kkbags, [yawn] I have to return Gloteral's manuscript. What am I gonna say? Umm, maybe "it's just like Harry Potter, or it's like that ehm Game of Kings shit/thing on the telly, I think..."' ... Also, OP should refer hisselve to chapter 3 of Shiteberg's Rules of Righter 1947. Once 'quest' has been inserted -see 'opening line,' - chapter 1, continue with an alternation of the violent and love-making settings, conclude with a violent love-making/violent love scene. That way a husband may safely pass any novel to his wife for her to indeed briefly precis the romance element - whilst he persues the more robust sword-fighting section . She may smoke her cigarette as per usual 'Book-sharing Regulations.'
@deadrats, I studied popular fiction in college, and what @O.M. Hillside is saying is what I learned too. I learned it in Genre Fiction, i learned it in Children's Literature. I'm not saying I am an expert (i'm still learning!) but what I've learned is that there is sexism and racism in literature. My professors know its sexist, but it is true. In fact, one of my Literature professors (when learning about literature from 1950 and before) said that literature was sexist and racist and coined the term "ODWG" for "Old Dead White Guy". (Context: "the author was an ODWG, so there are a lot of viewpoints that were pertinent to the time it was written but not so much now"). All of my literature professors (with the exception of 3) were old white guys. The other 3 were white females. My writing popular fiction professors was a white guy (Horror author and professor of the Writing Horror Fiction class), and a white lady (author of an urban fantasy series and professor of Writing Popular Genre Fiction). All of them say pretty much the same thing in terms of gender (and race) in literature an readers. @Jinessej said she tends to walk past books labeled "for women".... I tend to walk past books labeled "African American Fiction." Generalizations as to what certain groups read (or want to read) is how books are sold.
Question for all: are we talking about Literary Fiction in this debate/discussion.... or Genre Fiction..... or both?
@Rats was just beating him up for fun - playground rules - y'know - beat the old bastard, it happens around here. Anyway, @Rats made the point about sexing. That guy won't be back with his 'men reading mechanics bullshit,' the loser.
Um thanks. Well, I never said men read mechanics. I have no idea what you mean. I was talking about how the general population, not just readers, will actually engage with books. I remember back in high school we had a period of time where everyone had to read some book. Okay, so first of all most people never read at all unless it was for school. Even then, they would sparknotes everything 70% of the time. But since for SSR, they had to read something, they would bring something that they could tolerate. I would look around and see what people were holding. Most of the guys would read comics, books related to sports (Michael Jordan biographies), war stories. In elementary school, I remember a lot of the boys looked at the Guinness world record book or books which were literally filled with diagrams of guns. Of course there would be the occasional nerd like me who would bring in other kinds of books. The girls? They often read romance stories with nice, pink sparkly covers. In highschool, they read plenty of that as well and also Twilight, Divergent, Hunger Games, etc. But that's the way it is: people read stuff that relates to their direct life interests. Boys and men do not have that much interest in reading fiction compared to women. So "men reading mechanics" is definitely a thing because for a lot of mechanics the only thing they read is whatever they had to in order to learn the trade. Anyway, I was trying to outline some of the interests that men have as opposed to women. Apologies if I hurt your feelings.
I think it might go more smoothly if you made it clear you're talking about generalities/averages/trends, rather than absolutes. I know, it's common sense to realize that there are no absolutes, but there are too many people who do think absolutes are possible and I think many of us are used to arguing with them. So, for clarity, I assume you're acknowledging that lots and lots of men read fiction. Many boys and men do have interest in reading fiction, and, conversely, many women do not. And then from there, we could go into the larger trends. On average, there are more women reading fiction than men. There's a trend of women being the principle readers of romance, while there are more men than women, in general, reading about mechanics. etc. When you talk about "interests that men have as opposed to women" it makes it sound like you're talking about all men and all women, and of course that's inaccurate.
Well, I don't see how that could be the issue. I said in my first post in the second sentence: "the following are generalizations..." Not sure how the fact that what follows may be some generalizations could be made any clearer. But yes obviously millions of men read fiction and millions of women don't read at all. Women can do anything they want from tuning up a motorcycle to cooking, it's their choice, and everyone is a special, unique person. But, nevertheless, there are general trends that people follow and they are often directly related to certain categories. Categories like man and woman. West coast American and east coast American. Coffee drinkers and non coffee drinkers; smokers, non smokers; low, middle, and high class; etc., etc., you get the point.
I was only kidding @OM. I spent an hour on the web, my biorhythms were in the red zone back then, I'm over it now, thanks. I'm sorry.
The original question referred to Hunger Games, Harry Potter, and Game of Thrones, so that's certainly about genre fiction. But I see no reason why the conversation couldn't stray to literary fiction. Now I'm wondering about the demographics of literary fiction.
