not to mention very few published authors can actually afford to give up their day job. Most I know still work to fund their writing in a lot of ways. Seliing a book does not mean you will be able to live off the profits.
As much as I hate labels, there are four schools of writers, I believe: 1) The naive, who assume that they were born with talent spilling from their fingertips. These are the sort who've been coddled all of their lives by supporting friends and family, each of whom enable their delusions out of love and ignorance. This school cares more about output than economy. They bang out words ad nauseum and don't revise because they believe they are already at the top of their game. They barely read what's new in the publishing world, don't study markets, draft poor queries, and shotgun submit them to every agent in Writer's Market. They view rejection letters as a sign that the publishing world obviously can't comprehend their genius. They don't value critique because they feel they're entitled to praise. As a result, they'll never improve their craft, and when they've exhausted every opportunity, they'll go to a vanity press and post a link to their book on a wordpress account and taut to their friends that they are real writers, that they knew they could do it all along. They'll call Barnes and Noble and try to schedule a signing, but when they're told that they don't have signings for self-published authors, they scoff, totally ignorant of what they've done. Now they'll spit and curse the literary world for the rest of their lives and start a blog in which they rant about how idiotic it all is. Then when they can't take it anymore they'll turn to fan fiction.net and write Star Wars lore indefinitely, with a dedicated fanbase of fourteen year olds encouraging them to post more. 2) The second school is much more complicated. This is a school of fairly competent writers, but their expectations are unchecked. They appreciate critique and honest feedback, but they become so dejected when they don't get it right the first time that instead of revising until the piece sings, they abandon it entirely and work on a new piece. Occasionally, they'll luck out and write a decent piece on the first try, and receive some good feedback, but they stop there and don't polish and instead shotgun submit the work to markets they haven't researched. When they become overwhelmed with rejections they take it as a sign that their story isn't good enough, that they aren't good enough, so they'll abandon their work again and repeat the same process until they've decided to abandon writing altogether. This is the school who could have really worked on their craft and made a few sales and steadily ascended the difficult trek of publishing, but they don't like hard work, they don't like the pain that comes with writing, so their potential is never realized. 3) This is the school who knows they're not at the level they want to be. They read widely and compare themselves to other authors, swearing that they'll never write like Joyce or Nabakov or Updike. But that's okay. Instead, they decide to concentrate on cultivating their own voice and working to the best of their abilities to improve. They wear scarfs and blazers with leather elbows and write in Starbucks with a warm latte at their hand, smirking at the plethora of stares and whispers from patrons who say, "I think he's writing a novel." This sort absorbs themselves in workshops and book clubs and might even major in English at college, where they talk about things like Post-Colonial theory and Derrida's Differance and the impact of scopophilia on the female reader. They get a few pieces published in their school journals, maybe win an award or two and praise from professors. They have a stack of rejections on their desk, most form, but some with encouraging words from editors like, "This didn't work for me, but it's good. Submit again." While rejection certainly stings their self-esteem, they use it to motivate them to improve their craft altogether. They are sometimes arrogant, sometimes modest, but know in the end that their work isn't at the level they want it to be, so they'll strive above anything else to bring it up to a worthy standard. This group is less interested in the status of a writer than merely writing. They've managed to sell a few short stories in small markets in exchange for fifteen contributers copies. They harbor ambitions that maybe they could be the next J.K Rowling, but they stick to more realistic goals like having their novel picked up by a small press and maybe picking up a small, but devoted fan base. They blog every day, mostly about the tribulations of being a writer, and they might take up a job teaching high school English, or might even go on for an MFA to teach at college. They're not where they want to be yet. The publishing world is unforgiving. But they feel like their sole purpose in life is to write, so write they shall, and maybe, with a lot of hard work and an extraordinary amount of luck, they'll get that novel published. The money will be more than they've ever made out of writing before, but it's a modest sum, barely enough to cover a few month's rent. So they keep their teaching job, they keep writing, and perhaps one day they can amass enough credits to make a stable living writing articles or editing for hire. In the end, they persevere, and that's a step in the right direction, the only direction they know. 4) What can be said about this school? They are the reincarnation of Shakespeare. They could read before they were the age of two, composed six novels by the time they were sixteen. They write as if the words were strung together by some omnipotent, mystical force. They don't understand their genius or where it comes from, but it's there. They win every competition they submit to. They receive an offer from every agent. They win the Pulitzer Prize on their debut novel. They are freaks of nature, gifted with a literary prowess that you and I couldn't even glimpse at in our own writing. They are the 1% of true, impeccable talent. They are literary stalwarts. Gods. Their work will be discussed in undergraduate lit classes for the next two-hundred years. Scholarship will be written about them from every competent theorist. Entire fields of study will be created solely to research their work. They will die and be immortalized through their writing forever. They will inspire eager new writers to write. And they will discourage some, who believe that even if they had a million years and a few cups of coffee, they'd never write like them. Not sure where I fall. I'm somewhere in the middle. Most of the time, I'm dejected, so I rarely finish projects. Other times I'm optimistic and finish things. I don't wear scarfs, but I like lattes. I've published a few things in small ezines, but the most I've ever been paid in writing was a meager $200. I don't expect I'll ever be widely known, and that's all right. I'm going to keep writing and submitting because I'm not interested in much anything else, and even if I do fail, at least I'll go to my grave knowing that I tried. And the state of traditional publishing, regardless of how difficult it is, can't ever take that from me. EDIT: I despise the term "traditional" publishing because it was coined by Publish America.
Please try not to read into things in what seems an active attempt to TRY to find something to be offended by. I'm not talking about people who have jobs and are dedicated to writing and actually put the time into it. I'm talking about the people who have jobs, and write very limitedly, and think they're somehow entitled to 'making it' because they're struggling to juggle both. Meanwhile, as you say, almost all writers that make it do so by dedicating themselves completely with writing, not just playing the 'I'm a writer too' game and lamenting how tough it is and being indignant nobody is giving them a chance to write full time. One has to write like a professional before ever being treated like one, and that means more than a few hours a week. When I was working 40 hours a week, I was also still writing at least 20 on top of going to school full time. It's not the fact people have a job (I apologize if you seemed to think that was what I was saying, lol), it's the fact people think having a job precludes them from having to also dedicate just as much time and effort into writing, on top of that job, like many of us have had to do. edit: And I don't think anyone needs to have credentials to have an opinion. If you really must know, I've worked extensively with both academic and community writing workshops and communities, and this isn't just something I made up to be elitist. It's a serious problem I've observed. People join a workshop, don't put the time in, get upset when feedback isn't simply praise, and the then go to the 'well I work full time' defense as if that means they should be held to a lower standard or given special privileges because they also work, despite most of the other people in attendance also working full time. What I find tiresome are people that seem hell-bent on picking out any little thing they can be offended by and responding to them as if they relish the opportunity to attack someone or call someone names like a 'pseudo-cynicism elitist.' I'll have you know my cynicism is very real, and it's not pseudo-cynicism at all, and just about anyone who works with writers long enough isn't human if they haven't developed a bit of cynicism.
I agree. If you don't have time for writing then you really need to re-evaluate what you do with that time. Turn off the TV, get out of a bed a few hours earlier than normal. It's amazing how much free time we really have at our disposal that we don't utilize. I try to write every day, but that doesn't happen as well as I would like it to. But if I'm not writing, I'm either reading or I'm researching markets or posting on these writing forums. Also, even if you don't feel in the mood for writing a particular day, at least read. Reading and writing go hand in hand. You're not actively writing, but you're engrossing yourself in the written word, and it helps. Having a full time job isn't an excuse not to write. The minute you need to make excuses for why you're not writing is indication that maybe you shouldn't write to begin with. I find, however, that having some sort of a workshop or group can help in this. If you have a deadline, have a set amount of time to turn in a story, you'll be amazed how much work you get done with it. Maybe challenge yourself with posting at least a polished story here every week, while taking time to critique five pieces for every one you post. One story a week is fifty two short stories a year. That's quite a bit to start sending out.
"What I find tiresome are people that seem hell-bent on picking out any little thing they can be offended by and responding to them as if they relish the opportunity to attack someone or call someone names like a 'pseudo-cynicism elitist." I'm sorry if my opinion offended you, but if you are going to post a message on an open forum criticising the behavior of just about anyone who doesn't fit your mental model of a serious writer you should expect a reaction. If I 'attacked' anything it was your position. We all fancy ourselves writers, of one skill level or another, on this forum, so I assume you crafted your posts with some care. If so, then you were looking to elicit a response from your readers. I'm sorry that you don't like the one you got from me.
Hmmm, let's see. I write during breaks at work, while in the waiting room at the Doctor's office, while in the waiting room when visiting friends or relatives at a hospital, while waiting at the airport, at night while on vacation, and at nights during the week, and days during the weekend. Is that enough to make me a professional? I'm afraid your tiresome perception is misguided on this one. I've known Terry D for quite some time, and I assure you that he is not a picker that relishes an opportunity to attack, or usually a name caller. I also know that you don't know him well enough to know that. I'm sure in time that if you give him the chance, you will see this for yourself, just by reading his posts. The thing with people and publishing is that we're all human, and we may not all see the publishing beast in the same way. That's fine with me, and you'll get no argument out of me for your opinions. Everyone can only respond to what they have seen when it comes to agents and publishers, or with what is going on in the market; and not everyone is going to have the same experiences. If someone doesn't agree with my opinions, that's okay. I'm just calling it as I see it, at the time that I see it. But hold on, it's bound to change again in time.
Thanks for the word, but I was already ahead of you on that one. After I posted that, I thought... why not? So it's already in the works. The price however, will be $2.99 so that will be an even sweeter deal. The Lulu prices are too high, and I don't blame you, because I wouldn't buy it either. That's one of the drawbacks of self publishing a print copy.
I find it easier to just click ignore. I still don't even understand where the offense, was. I think he must have assumed something I wasn't trying to say, and instead of seeking clarification or understanding, jumped into the whole 'who do you think you are' bs that permeates the internet and is generally a waste of everyone's time. Usually, people only get offended because they're looking to get offended. I have better things to do. But maybe I should be more forgiving of writers who are indigent because they aren't being given special treatment because they work a 'real' job (them condescending, not me) and barely ever actually write, and instead of ever thinking maybe they should write more, and work harder, just say it isn't fair because they have a full time job and a family and an agent should keep that in mind and give them a chance on some vague notion of future potential. It's offensive, because meanwhile there are tons of writers who are working their butts off despite jobs and family, who put in real time into their craft and are earning their chances, not thinking they should be given a free pass because they've chosen not to manage their time better. It's obnoxious, and I guess I don't care if another writer gets offended by the fact I'm tired of entitled aspiring writers thinking the fact they have a dream and WANT to be a writer should earn them some kind of advantage, and are indignant when they aren't being published or getting agent interest when they simply aren't putting in the time required. Oh, but but but I have a job, I have a family. Yeah, so do most of us, and instead of whining about how unfair it is, we figure it out and put in the hours. I think maybe that's the misunderstand... thinking that I was somehow scoffing at people who have jobs (so odd I didn't even think that a possibility at first). No. I'm scoffing at writers who think them having a job means they shouldn't have to work as hard, or use their job/family/life as an excuse to not writer, then, again, get indignant that they aren't being given chances and finding success as a writer. Here's an idea: WRITE MORE. When I was frustrated about my writing time, I took a graveyard shift job so I could write and do school work on the clock, because I didn't have much time otherwise. It sucked, was hell on my health, and I paid the price for it, but I made time to write. And you know what, I've met a lot of people that who in the course of complaining because it's just not fair they have to work a 'real' job when they want to be a writer, said I was 'lucky' to have the job I had and that it wasn't fair because they couldn't write while at work. Lucky? No, it was a decision I made. Imagine that. This all ties into one of the huge issues I see with writers and writing communities (or the lack there of). In every class, there are a good number of students who churn out some crap the day before. In every workshop group, there are the people who just turn in the same manuscript over and over for years and never really write anything new or work on revision. In every writing group there are people who seem to enjoy calling themselves a writer and talking about the idea they have for a novel, but never seem to actually write. That's all fine. My problem is when these people then start blubbering about how it's not fair, and it's just too hard, and they have jobs and families and agents should keep that in mind, and give them a shot, if someone only gave them the chance to write full time... blah blah blah. No, the problem is there are far too many people who WANT to be writers, and it doesn't go much beyond that. But these people, who've decided not to put the time in, still submit to journals, query agents, take up spots in classes, workshops and conferences, etc. It pushes up costs, creates a bloated system where agents and publishers can't afford to do business anymore because everyone wants to draw from resources, but nobody ever seems willing or able to give back, and it makes it that much harder to find the writers who are putting in the work and are serious and dedicated. I don't personally care if someone only writes an hour a week, or doesn't write at all. But for the love of kitten stop complaining and whining and being all indignant about how it's just not fair, and nobody understands your genius and tell me to my face that an agent should give you a shot, not me, when you haven't put in a fraction of the time and dedication I have to not only my own writing, but writers in general. But yeah, it's not the time one has to write or the job that bothers me and is killing the industry in many ways, it's the indignant, entitled attitudes that people have when they haven't done much of anything to actually earn the chances they think they deserve.
Yeah definitely one of the drawbacks. Well, when it's available, please let us know. I look forward to reading it. Ed
+1 Although I'm not sure all the wannabe writers drive up prices. Writing classes are not a limited resource; the more people are willing to pay for them, the more is produced.
Sorry for the delayed response. Yes, this is a brilliant idea Although the whole idea of having work put up online without it being revised by professionals kinda scares me :/
As an author I like the idea of not having editors and publishers tweak my work as much as some friend's have had their works affected - I like the idea I can keep the contraversial scenes where actually it should be because it is good, right and not because it makes the publisher squeamish. I have a very innocent scene in my book nothing wrong with it at all but my friend has had a similar one taken out of a book about to be published. Personally I would rather have a work with typos and continuity errors but with its intergrity in tact. The author always has the option of employing someone to make their work more professional. In fact with this who needs publishers lol
Edward, you're buying into the paranoid ravings that the printed book is dying. It's not. They said the same thing when PTO arrived in the nineties. And as for you stating we are all going to "lose the bet" should a publisher take us on, that's ridiculous. Just because you don't read broadly doesn't mean others don't. Try not to pass off your opinion as fact; it borders on misinformation, and I get cranky when the blind lead the blind.
You're right, it would keep some originality. Hopefully that'll happen some day The trick would be advertising your works once they're up for sale on amazon or wherever one decides to put them up on. I think having spelling errors can totally throw off a reader, that's why It's good to have editors (and like you said, people could still reach out for one) But then again, this would all be ideal in a world where books are not published in print anymore, but electronically. It seems like a nice idea, though
Funny I have been toying with this - I am starting a website i hope to launch next week, were I serealise (sp??) a number of my works, using them to advertise my main two series. I was contemplating self publishing them as ebooks and tradtional print from the website. That way readers get to see examples of my work before buying but don't get my main stories either. It is a fallback for if I don't get a publisher or agent in next year.
seems like a good idea! and I'm not sure how to spell that word, do you mean as in something serial or serious? that would be a good way of getting your work out there, but I always hear publishers don't like self-publishers (wonder why that is )
i wouldn't really need a publisher then just someone to do the epub for me and the local printing press can do my books. As long as I can get traffic to my site it should bring in income. Yes like the 19th century authors used to do their books in installments in magazines before they were published as novels. I want to in effect make my website the magazine/paper/journal. Then at the end of the year publish the snippets in a chunk as an epub so it works like reading an annual for grown ups. Basically it is a variation on the erotic/kinky short story sites that have a free section then a paid section.
Not actually true in all instances. Every semester at my local college there are two advanced fiction classes. That's it. And every semester instructors (the nice ones) let the capacity bloat to the absolute legally allowed maximum and there are always still a handful of folks who are standing in the class trying to get it, not to mention the people that gave up weeks prior and just dropped the class. Adding more writing classes at the undergrad level doesn't really bring in more money. The lower division fiction classes are numerous and filled with people who aren't English/writing majors. A lot of people are interested in writing, but few are willing to commit money and time to a degree related to it (and I don't blame them). So, they do the classes largely as electives. Get to upper division and it starts to get expensive. Beginning fiction you can have your grad assistants teaching the classes. Intermediate you can have adjuncts or other English professors doing double duty. At Advanced and Graduate levels, you can't really get away with that, and need full-time professors teaching the courses, but that gets expensive. And like I said, many of the classes are filled up as electives. The advanced classes become few, because they HAVE to offer the classes for actual students majoring in writing. So they do offer classes, but barely. Even when the classes are independent of academic politics and structure, it doesn't always work. There's a local literary center that offers writing classes/workshops at a pretty decent rate that always fill up quickly and are always full. I haven't figured out why, exactly, but these classes are actually pretty rare. I haven't gotten a straight answer, but mumbling about how they barely break even anyway (non profit, so no biggie) but the liability and time coordinating and instructors get paid, but not much, so are kinda volunteers. I don't know, haven't figured out exactly what the problem is, but suffice it to say there is a ton of interest and these community workshops are always in high demand, people willing to pay a decent price, and the agency still doesn't bother having many. One of the major issues is that most qualified to teach the class are busy as writers and professors, so you either have to pay them a pretty good amount to get them to do it, or they have to be generous and practically volunteer their time. And sure, the money might be good, but adding another class to one's schedule can take a lot of time away from other things, like writing, and time is money for a writer... errr, rather time is a chance at future money for a writer, lol. The ironic thing is that if you don't charge people, a class/workshop/group will be empty. Same class, same instructor, and nobody is interested. But toss a 100 dollar charge onto it, and people are clamoring to get in. We have seen an MFA boom, as more people than ever are interested in going to graduate school for writing. Even still, the programs are highly competitive and there never seems to be enough of them to appease all those interested. But many/most programs aren't expanding their number of admissions because more writers doesn't always equal more money (quite the opposite in many cases). Paying extra instructors, providing facilities, creating more grad assistant positions for students (it's a balancing act, too many or two few and it costs the university money, just the right amount and it's cheap labor and everyone is happy). That's for most of the programs that are fully funded and you don't have to pay directly. But even the programs that costs tens of thousands of dollars, with tons of people willing to pay, they don't bloat their ranks still because the costs seem to rise exponentially, not on a linear scale (I say they seem to). And it just looks bad. You have the program down the road admitting 4 of the best, hand-selected candidates and it funds their students, and your school allows in 30 each year and makes the students pay tens of thousands of dollars. It starts to look like a program is only out for money, which kills all reputation. But yeah, pardon my dissertation. Writing education is a weird business that doesn't always make sense at first glance, and very often demand doesn't lead to more supply proportionally, because if the interest in a class doubles, very rarely will the occupancy also double, so it just becomes more competitive... which of course gets people interested and starting to think the class is 'exclusive' and then you get even more demand, lol. Online classes/workshops and conferences I think work a bit different, and seem better equipped to respond to increased demand, and more willing.
I have something to add to the original theme of this thread. I know that publishing isn't easy. I know that I will probably never be a famous author. But the thing is, there's still a chance. The chance is small. I will concede that much, but if I don't try, then it definitely won't happen.
Anna Sewell, Black Beauty 1 Novel Bryce Courtnay, Power of One 1 Successful Novel Daniel Quinn, Ishmeal 1 Successful Novel Margaret Mitchell, Gone with the Wind 1 Novel Emily Bronte, Wuthering Heights 1 Novel J. D. Salinger, Catcher in the Rye 1 Novel Boris Pasternak, Doctor Zhivago 1 Novel Edger Allen Poe, The Narrative of Arthur Gordon Pym of Nantucket 1 Novel They will take chances on new writers cause a publisher can make long term profits off an Author who never produces another Novel. Specially if that Novel is really good. Dan Brown is a relatively new name to writing and he has made a small fortune off the very market your saying does not exist. If anything there is more money to be made now that Books can transfer mediums yes you book my be sold in the dollar section of amazon, but it also can be sold to the movie industry where it draws the big bucks. Even if you get a thriller to go to a lifetime made for TV movie there is massive dollars in that. Not to mention Audio books make a fortune. I buy first time Novels all the time, sometimes cause I am looking for something new sometimes by fate. With reduced printing cost and a broader literate audience you have a much better chance of turning a profit today then Gutenberg when he printed his first bible. What you have to remember is every mass novelist out there all have one thing in common. From Stephen King to Dean Koontz at one time they were all first time Novelist.
Uh oh. Time to *gasp* self publish! That's okay, there are a number of threads on here that will walk you through it. I even run a blog on ideas: http://animuslitterae.blogspot.com/ True, I haven't sold millions of copies. Then again, according to this post, you won't either! As always, I say research first and decide later. A lot of household items are going obsolete. The printed book is just one of those items. If you don't keep up with market trends, you go the way of the dinosaur. Keep learning and adapting. People are still selling books and making a profit. Just not the traditional way.
I don't disagree with your main point, but I wanted to say: I think that it's perfectly healthy for all of these people to be writing. What isn't healthy, IMO, is for them to expect to be _published_, on a large scale. I've discussed this elsewhere in the context of letter-writing (in the past) and blogging (today). It's my largely-unsubstantiated belief that before most interpersonal communication went to telephones, a lot more amateur writing went on, in the form of letters. And that after a gap of a few decades, that amateur writing is coming back, in the form of blogs and other writing on the Internet. The problem is that people seem to have trouble with the idea that they're just writing as a personal pursuit, with a possible audience of a few friends or a few online readers. People have no trouble perfecting a dinner recipe just for their friends and family, or improving their tennis swing just for the fun of it, or working on their singing voice for the Sunday choir or local glee club. I think that most of those people realize that their talent is not up to professional or world-class standards, but they enjoy themselves anyway. But it seems that people can't manage to do the same thing with writing. They don't value their online writing unless they have a blog that's packed with ads and gives them satisfying daily readership graphs. And they don't value their other writing unless they're getting published. That, IMO, is what's broken with most writers--the problem isn't that they're writing, the problem is ambitions that exceed talent and/or work and commitment. Right now, I'm a dabbler and I know it. I have blogs, I have a few dozen readers, I'm enjoying myself, and I'm not annoying any agencies or publishers with offerings of dubious quality. I think that this is a perfectly good model for the writer who isn't prepared to do the work that would be required for publishing to be a possibility. ChickenFreak
Many of the books I read I noticed because they were referenced on the web. I searched Amazon Marketplace and obtained a copy. I'm not browsing at brick&mortar book stores; I have a specific title in mind and I want it. I found Greg Egan on the web with his non-fiction postings, initially. I read some of his fiction that was also posted there, and ended up buying all his books.
There are numerous agents who accept work from unpublished writers, so I really don’t get the opening premise of this thread.
