1. Integer

    Integer Member

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    Lost faith in my book - friends and family beta readers and hurt feelingd

    Discussion in 'Revision and Editing' started by Integer, Mar 5, 2017.

    I thought that when I finished my book the clouds would part and a glorious rainbow appear.

    Actually what has happened is that the beta readers I have given my book to, who include close friends and family, all got halfway and then gave up reading. If I ask them about it they all say it was "brilliant", "amazing" and a work of genius.

    If I ask any of them what they think of the story beyond half way, then it's tumbleweed. As they've had it since Christmas I think I have to assume that they basically got tired of it and I'm not going to get any real feedback as to why.

    I beta read an entire book for another author (who isn't a close friend or family) and gave her a section of my book in return. She said it was so bad she wouldn't read any more, and that was that.

    Frankly I can brush off her opinion and at least she gave one, but it's the friends and family that really hurts.

    I have another friend who liked something else I wrote but said she really doesn't have much time to feedback am entire novel, another friend who said he would be "honoured" (I don't think he understands what beta reading is) and another friend who said she really didn't want to read it but if I was totally stuck then she would do.

    I thought I would be knee deep in querying by now but there you go.

    The thing is, I feel so resentful about said friends and family not reading my book when they know how important it is to me that it's sort of affecting my relationship with them now. I made clear to all of them that they didn't have to like it, or finish it, but I wanted some real feedback. "Yes it was great, no I can't be bothered to read all of it" just seems so, insulting.

    Anyone been here?
     
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  2. OurJud

    OurJud Contributor Contributor

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    It's all about friends and family not wanting to hurt your feelings - at least not in a literal sense.

    But if these people are otherwise avid readers, then maybe you just have to swallow your pride and ask yourself why they stopped reading. You need to read between the lines and take the hint from the tumbleweed response you get when you press them for their views.

    This is exactly why it's so hard to make it as a successful writer. You have to accept that your novel, or a huge chunk of it needs re-working or even rewriting in its entirety.

    It's also why I've decided I'm going to stop trying. I'll still write because I can't not, but the thought of 'making it' is no longer part of the equation and it actually feels quite good to have made that decision.

    This all sounds very negative, doesn't it? But that last sentence applies to me and me alone. This is when you'll show yourself what you're made of. You'll either give up, or you'll do something about it.

    And yes I realise that will be difficult without the feedback, so you need to press these people, force them to be honest and tell you they got bored half way through. Once they've admitted this, ask them to explain why they got bored. Once they've accepted you're okay with them not liking it, they'll be far more inclined to tell you why.
     
  3. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Yes, that's the way to approach your betas. First of all, if you're hurt, don't let it show ...and certainly don't say anything you'll later regret—or, god forbid, try emotional blackmail (if you were really my friend/family member, you'd CARE...)

    Instead, tell them that you're eager to improve and make changes (even from the ground up) but you won't know what you're doing wrong (or right) unless somebody tells you what they think. You just need a hint. Something like 'it's fantastic' or 'it's terrible' is no help at all. They don't need to respond to the whole book, especially if they didn't manage to get through it, but just a hint of why it didn't work for them would be helpful.

    See if that gets you anywhere?

    You could also put some of it ...say, an opening chapter ...here in the workshop. (Assuming you've done your required two critiques of others' work first.) Lots of people here are likely to respond. And if they like what they see, they may offer to beta read the whole thing. OR if they don't like what they see, they'll probably tell you why.

    Personally, I find the fact that you've actually finished the novel is a huge plus in your favour. At the very worst, you've got a place to start improving. At the best, maybe it's not all that bad after all, and you've just got a bunch of people around you who don't like it much.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2017
  4. SadStories

    SadStories Active Member

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    I've given books I loved to family and friends, books that were published and financial successes, and they never bothered finishing them. In some cases they told me they hated it. So this doesn't necessarily mean your book is bad or won't be a success. On the other hand your book probably is really bad, because I'm assuming this is your first book? It takes a lot of practice to get anywhere with this type of thing. Being stupidly stubborn and having no self-respect is probably one of the most important qualities of a successful writer. A lot of people write several entire books before they publish anything.

    If you want you can send me your first chapter and I can tell you what you need to work on or if it's fine and you just need to find beta readers interested in your type of stories. I think I'm a reasonably good judge of that by now, if nothing else.
     
  5. OurJud

    OurJud Contributor Contributor

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    Yes, I should have mentioned this. You've taken the biggest step in finishing the thing - and that's something millions upon millions of fledging writers can't claim.
     
  6. Cave Troll

    Cave Troll It's Coffee O'clock everywhere. Contributor

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    @Integer

    I kinda know what you mean. I had one beta recently simply back out on a swap.
    Even though I understand the style and tone that the piece in question is not
    for everyone, I took the ordeal well.

    And how do you know that your story is bad based on one persons opinion?
    Short answer is it is not.

    Though I have never asked anyone close to me to beta read anything, because
    it will be either a fake accolade, or come back bleeding with a blistering note
    of where I screwed up in multiple capacities.

    You could post a thread in the Collab section, and get a neutral party to read
    and feedback on your story. :)
     
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  7. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    theres a big thread on why friends and family suck at crique already - but in short because they are friends and family.

    I'm too busy to commit to beta reading a (another) whole book but if you want to send me a couple of chapters bu pm i'll have a look and provide some critique ... because i don't know you i'll have no problem being honest good or bad, but if I hate and think its terrible i'll at least tell you why

    ETA ref the workshop you need another three posts, and then to have given two crits for each one you ask for
     
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  8. LostThePlot

    LostThePlot Naysmith Contributor

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    Friends and family just aren't good betas. That's just the truth of it. It's natural to look there first but unless they are people who are very keen readers who like the genre it's just not likely to pan out. And that makes sense; people have lives and just making the time to read a book that you probably wouldn't read if you didn't know the author is tough. That goes double for something that's either an enormous print out or that has to be read off a computer screen. That doesn't say anything about you or your work it's just the reality of the world. Don't take it too personally that they are overly nice or that they gave up half way.

    Truth is that it's incredibly hard to find beta readers. It's a thankless, boring task. Reading to critique isn't the same as reading for pleasure. Most writers would much rather be working on their own books, most readers would rather be reading things they know they are going to like. It's incredibly hard to find someone who will actually stick out the whole book, who will be honest and, most importantly, can give you criticism that is actually useful to you. You can't do anything with 'I don't like this scene'; you need to know if it was boring, if it's too long, if it doesn't fit, if it breaks the tone. But that's hard to get.

    It is important to get criticism, certainly. But it's not the be all and end all. While you are looking for beta readers, you should look to develop your own self-criticism and look to being savagely dispassionate about your own work. This is a good thing whether other people read it or not; it's something you want to be able to do anyway. Put the book down, walk away and work on something else, then come back and read again with fresh eyes and see how it reads to you. Don't be precious, be as critical as you can. Find the weaknesses, find the parts where you might think "I love this but other people might not". Be as honest as you can about the work. Be tough. And once you're done and you still think it's good then go and submit it.

    When submitting all you can do anyway is submit something that you think is as good as you can make it. Betas can help you with that, sure. They can help you chase down loose threads or trim away fat. But in the end it'll still be your call. Even with dozens of people reading your work you'll run into a situation where you think that one way is the best and they think something else. And you just have to trust that you know what good is.

    As someone above said; most writers won't get their first book published. It's not because that's a bad book, it's just because as you go through the process of writing and editing and submitting you learn a lot and you become better at doing those things. We might wish that the strength of our work would just carry us to stardom, but it comes down to knowing how to play the game. Some of that is writing craft, some of that is experience, and some of that is headbutting the wall of publishing and having to try again.

    Don't lose faith. Just keep writing. Keep working. Keep going and you'll get there.
     
  9. KhalieLa

    KhalieLa It's not a lie, it's fiction. Contributor

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    Good betas are VERY hard to find. They don't just need to be readers, they need to read your genere AND understand enough of the writing process to give feeback. Even people who claim to be writers and willing to exchange work can turn out to be bad betas.

    The only member of my family who has read any of my work is my grandma and that's because she likes fantasy. I did not send the book to my mother because she likes horror, or my father who reads non-fiction hunt/fish/trap and occasional Pat McMannus (sp?) hunting humor book, nor did I send it to anyone else in the family, because they just aren't into fantasy. As for feedback, grandma gave me the requisit pat on the head.

    I struggeled for months with a critique group who worked with my genere, but hated my work and told me weekly that I'd never be published. It took a year of dedicated looking to find good readers. Now, I've been offered a book contract.

    If you really work at it, you can get good feedback and improve your craft, but that feedback isn't likely to come from friends and family.
     
  10. LostThePlot

    LostThePlot Naysmith Contributor

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    Yeah this really can't be understated; you have to find readers who would enjoy what you are writing. The goal for every book is to be enjoyable. No matter how good a critic someone is if the book doesn't click with them then they won't give you the feedback you need. For someone like me who loathes fantasy writing whatever feedback I give is going to be a bit tinged by that. I just hate that kind of 'forsooth m'lady' dialogue and even if I struggle through it I can't help but tell you that every line of dialogue just doesn't work for me. But someone who does like that style and that genre won't even notice that it's there; they'll suspend disbelief and make the jump with you that I just wouldn't be able to.

    That's why it's so important to get the right people reading your stuff, or even discussing your ideas with. Because different writers and readers just have different things that matter to them. Not long ago I was discussing a part of my next book idea here which was (another) YA romance book. And that discussion got sidetracked into talking about realistically portraying the gangs that the lead couple's families are connected to because to some writers (and some readers) that's really interesting and important; that this stuff needs to be right. But to my audience; not so much. The romance is the thing they care about and they'll happily accept that 'gang' is good enough description of what's going on, and even let me write how they work however fits best to the romance, rather than reflecting reality.

    And that's one of the big challenges here. Because it's very hard to connect with 'the audience' of a book before it's actually a book.
     
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  11. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    Don't waste your time with friends and family. If your work is so bad that others writers refuse to read it, your obvious course of action is to start writing short pieces for like minded people to critique, until you can start pumping out presentable prose.

    You should dream about the day someone interviews you as a successful, published author, so that you can tell the world how not one family member or friend believed in you but you did it anyway.
     
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  12. Integer

    Integer Member

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    Thanks for all your responses. I have sent a couple of PMs out.

    I think the general consensus that friends and family don't make good beta readers is a fair point. I guess how many people do you see on X Factor and how much humiliation they would have been saved if they would have got some feedback from people other than their friends and family.

    I think I just won't ask them in future. Or tell them about it. I think when you tell people that you've written something they kind of feel like they're supposed to ask to read it even if they would rather do anything else.

    As they are all pretty aware that I'm writing I guess anyone interested will ask about it and the others will keep quiet!
     
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  13. Cave Troll

    Cave Troll It's Coffee O'clock everywhere. Contributor

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    100Proof.jpg :superidea:
     
  14. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    Argh yes, I have been here. Still am, actually.

    In my case I don't even want feedback. I just want to feel that my two best friends in the world are interested in something so important to me. Even if they don't like my books (they aren't in a genre they usually read) I just want to know that they care enough to read them. It's especially galling that I'm their go-to person when they want anything read and critiqued, from university assignments to job applications. It's hardly fun for me to edit other people's stuff all day at work then go home and do it for my friends, but I do because I care about them. Why isn't it reciprocated?

    This has been going on for more than a year and I've tried all sorts of ways to stop it bothering me, but it still does. It's hurtful. So I have no advice, but you're not alone.
     
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  15. LostThePlot

    LostThePlot Naysmith Contributor

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    My fiancee hasn't read a single word of anything I've written even though she's one of the few people I trust to give good feedback and is genuinely interested in the genre. She writes too, she reads lots, so what the hell? And yeah it sucks. It's genuinely hard to deal with, especially when she's expressed interest in some of them, said that she'd really love to see that book written. And then nothing.

    All I have been able to do is just stop asking, stop hoping and not take it personally. Which isn't easy. But in the end you can't take it personally that other people don't get interested in the same stuff as you.
     
  16. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    Having looked briefly at the work you (integer) sent me i think your family and friends might also be struggling with being honest without hurting your feelings as its pretty hard to read if I'm brutally frank, and there are sentences that don't make sense at all

    I'll give you a line by line tomorrow by pm but in general can I check are you a native English language speaker ?

    its unfortunately true that most family and mates will really struggle to say 'this isn't very good because of xyz' just as they won't tell you that velvet trousers and a Harlequin waistcoat isn't a good look for picking up chicks (don't ask - it was a long time ago when I was young and foolish)... instead you get "it's a good read / you look nice dear and no further detailed comment

    You also need to be honest with yourself - are you really okay with your mum being harshly critical of your work, when you are used to her unconditional support. Its a lot easier to take when its some random like me because if you don't like what i'm saying you can just shrug and say 'gobshite' - you can't really do that with your mum or whoever
     
  17. JE Loddon

    JE Loddon Active Member

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    I think the problem with friends and family is that they're not necessarily 'into' literature review, and in many cases books in general. To expect them to be able to read through a whole book, then provide genuinely constructive feedback is a bit much. I didn't get anyone to read my novel before I electronically published it, so I can't really offer advice on getting good beta readers unfortunately.
     
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  18. KhalieLa

    KhalieLa It's not a lie, it's fiction. Contributor

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    I've never asked my BF to read my novel and he's a writer as well. I did ask him to critique a short story that I had written and the next time he came over for dinner we wouldn't give it to me because, he said, "If I give this to you now, I won't get laid." He was afraid that I would take the criticism personally because that's what he experienced in other relationships. That's the problem with asking people close to you to read something.

    ^^^Yes, this. Otherwise you'll kill your relationships.

    A lot of people look at me like I'm crazy when they learn that I read and give feedback on about 200 pages of work a month. I explained the process to a friend and she said, "That just sounds too much like homework." And if we think back to our school days, how many kids in your class can you name who LIKED homework? Not many.

    So while the budding novelist is standing there begging, "Please read my book," what their friends are hearing is, "400 page reading assignment with a test on Monday." We may as well be standing before them proclaiming, "I've been experimenting with high iron recipes. Will you try this nifty shake I made by pureeing uncooked liver, raw eggs, and fresh spinach? Sounds yummy right?"
     
  19. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    Well, sorry to make you guys feel bad, but you have significant others who also write fiction and they won't critique your stuff for you??? That's pretty shitty.
     
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  20. tajo

    tajo New Member

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    You mind PMing me part of the story, and I will tell you what I think? Honestly I would not even tell my family about a story unless it's done ( unless it's my dad, because he is good at proofreading/editing)
     
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  21. Whitefire_Nomura

    Whitefire_Nomura Member

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    I have had the same experience however slightly different.

    I started out by writing an autobiography. (Because hey, not to sound egotistical but I think I've had a pretty amazing life and wanted to share it). After I got it done it was so jumbled "I" couldn't even read it all the way thru so I thought about making it a fiction piece and completely rewrote it and shared a little with my family to see what they thought about it and OMG! the flood gates opened. I actually had family writing me, demanding I write the next chapter and the next after and so on. When the book came to an end, all I got was praises on how wonderful it was.

    So then I thought that was that until some of them actually sent me death threats if I didn't write a sequel. So I thought to myself, "Well hell, if they liked it that much then I'll make it a cliffhanger." and wrote my little fingers off to give them what they wanted and then... nothing. No one has read the thing to this day and it's been done near 3 years now and no one still has had time to read it (in their words).

    So I have two of a three part novel sitting on my hard drive with nothing to do but sit there. Which is why I decided to explore the idea of seeing it is really that good or if all the death threats were just empty threats and my family was just blowing smoke up my rear.
     
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  22. KhalieLa

    KhalieLa It's not a lie, it's fiction. Contributor

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    And I don't critique his stuff either. It's how we maintain a relationship rather than simply being parasites. Who wants to be with someone who only values you for how much you can contribute to their current project?
     
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  23. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    Good point.
     
  24. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

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    My wife is honest about it. She won't read any of my sci-fi but she devours the "normal" stuff. She's always like, "When are you going to write a book I can actually read?" Or "Are you writing about robots and spaceships again? You should do some more romance or crime." One time as a joke I wrote the opening chapter of what I thought was the cheesiest piece of sexual drivel ever penned by anyone and she told me it was the greatest thing ever written... that everyone in America would want to read it. That was four years ago and she still asks me once a week when I'm going to finish it.
     
  25. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    How can you not take it personally that they aren't interested in your stuff?
     
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