What is it with new writers and fantasy?

Discussion in 'Fantasy' started by EdFromNY, Jun 25, 2013.

  1. Aprella

    Aprella Member

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    I grew up with fantasy. The first book I read for pleasure was the first Harry Potter. I grew up watching Fantasy films, playing fantasy games and reading fantasy books. Now I read, however, other genres as well but I still tend to go over to the fantasy section in the bookstore. I have just finished my first year as a Dutch and English literature and linguistics student and I had a course that gave us an overview of Literature in English from Beowulf until Post-modernism and I have to say, it opened my eyes. But I do think Fantasy will always remain my favourite genre.

    I love that it's often not set in this world. I have the feeling I can actually get away, though in a lot of fantasy novels a lot of terrible things, sometimes even worse than on earth, are happening. I do believe every genre needs research, but Fantasy and Science Fiction need a lot more world building and have a steeper learning curve than other genres. Right now I'm writing a fantasy novel wherein four people from 'our' world end up in another dimension which has an medieval based fantasy setting. A bit Narnia-ish though minus the talking animals and for adults. Maybe one day I will write something else than Fantasy, but it has to feel right!
     
  2. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    This isn't true, as a broad statement. Life experience in fantasy is going to be important just like in any other aspect of writing, where you have to deal with character motivations, understanding of political intrigue, or how social systems work, or any number of other things. You don't have to include those, but then again you don't have to include them in non-fantasy either. To the extent you do include them, just like with any other genre you have to understand them. Lots of stories across various genres lack a need for technical details, so that's not something that distinguishes fantasy either.
     
  3. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    Isn't Gravity's Rainbow sci fi?
     
  4. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    To add to this, it's not true because the foundations of fantasy, such things as Beowulf and The Illiad show a great awareness of what makes people work and every day life for it's contemporary world. To say fantasy doesn't require life experience is to ignore almost everything about it that is behind the scenes.

    [MENTION=35652]123456789[/MENTION] Hahaha - no.
     
  5. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    As to the "safe" comment, any genre can be as safe or risque as the author makes it, depending on the story being told :D
     
  6. Burlbird

    Burlbird Contributor Contributor

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    Neither is needed for bad writing - both are necessary for good writing. Genre is just a mold - when reading the best of any genre, boundaries are stretched and artificiality of genre definitions are questioned.

    I think that young wannabe authors are more likely to start writing in a genre they are most exposed to. As they grow up, and they start reading more (and hopefully not just the same derivative genre-fic), you might expect them to at least experiment with something else.
     
  7. Kaidonni

    Kaidonni Member

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    [MENTION=35110]jazzabell[/MENTION], I'd say all fiction tolerates the very same poor writing that fantasy tolerates. There is a huge range of fantasy fiction, and like all other fiction there will be a lot of poor writing, light bites like all of those Boon and Mills romance novels or easily forgettable reads. A lot, because that's how it is with all genres. It might be easy to write in a completely fictional world separate from our own, but it isn't easy to do it well.

    My current conlanging/conworlding project that is likely to inspire a WIP I consider to be far better than my previous attempts at anything fantasy, and I believe it's in no small part due to the approach I am taking - I'm not caring if it doesn't lead to a story, I'm conlanging and conworlding for its own sake. I'm wanting to explore how a certain culture might work out, rather than just happening to write in a fantasy world. While writers do need to be wary of doing too much worldbuilding, and Tolkien was far more experienced in anthropology and linguistics than many writers, I believe the best fantasy delves into the exploration of those subjects. Watership Down, while set in our world, explored the very culture of the rabbits, including their religious beliefs and the stories they held dear. A Song of Ice and Fire builds up along the lines of the Wars of the Roses, focusing on the consequences of such a huge struggle for kingship for all parties involved; it isn't just any old war.

    That's the crux of the issue - why is someone writing in a completely fictional world? Is it serving a purpose that our world can't? Can the story not be told in any other way? There are plenty of reasons to write fantasy, but lack of research and less restrictions aren't the best ones. I think people are letting themselves down choosing it for those reasons. Choosing something because it can be considered easy means we will fall short of achieving our true potential - we should choose something because it is hard to do well, and because we want to rise to that challenge.
     
  8. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    Hear! Hear! :D

    Piers Anthony's Vale of the Vole comes to mind. Is there trash Fantasy? Of course! There's trash everything. But then there is great Fantasy like this story. Anthony tells a great, fun, stand alone story for anyone not familier with ecology or politics, but also tells a parable about the canalization of the Kissimmee River in his native Florida and the subsequent ecological fallout. Two stories, one book. Pretty freakin' awesome. Having grown up in Central Florida, I was delighted when I realized what was going on this story. I felt like I was in on a secret. That's good story telling. ;)
     
  9. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    Very interesting question. You might be on to something, considering today's generation faces much greater economical difficulties than those now in their 50s and 60s.
    I'd like to agree with Peachalulu, that's it rather art reflecting other art than art reflecting life, but I also wonder why certain trends fit with certain times (I'm actually very interested in how music changes with generation..hmm maybe I'll start a thread on that). Maybe most people are just emulating what they see in Hollywood, but why is that particular genre so popular in holly wood in the first place. It must be resonating with a lot of people, and the question is, why?
     
  10. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    I would say even the best written fantasy often do not include much that was derived from real life experience nor display much technical knowledge.

    LoTR borrowed a lot from folklore. Commendable. That's about it.
     
  11. Fullmetal Xeno

    Fullmetal Xeno Protector of Literature Contributor

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    But every single genre has the traits of what you listed because it was written poorly. It's not just fantasy that can be written badly. My words were not meant to sound demeaning or threatening but out of a logical standpoint. Attacking fantasy for what you listed is common in every genre.
     
  12. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    I don't agree. The best writing, whether in fantasy or other genres, has well-developed, three-dimensional characters. It takes life experience to be able to write those kinds of characters, and to deal with their motivations and interactions with others.
     
  13. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    I was not overly impressed with the character development in LoTR, but maybe fantasy has evolved?

    Anyway, your argument, possibly true, is beside the point. Most aspiring writers are not the best writers. Lack of real life experience will be less obvious in a fantasy setting, then in a general fiction. Here's something to think about:

    If I'm reading a story about a young man struggling to become a teacher in the Bronx, I might be a little bit interested in the Bronx, too, but most likely I want to hear about this man, how he struggles and grows, etc. If I read about a dude who gets sucked into Bajorkaland, I might be interested in other (ie make believe) elements, than realistic character development.
     
  14. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    Yes, I can agree with this I think. That's what I like to read as well. But there are many fantasy stories that are all about the characters and struggles, and where very little turns on the peculiarities of the fantasy world. Lord of the Rings is dated, and I will agree that the characters are not that well developed. Today, however, you can find quite a bit of fantasy where character development is given as much weight as in other genres. It's not the case in every fantasy, of course, but then again it's not the case in every example from any genre I can think of.
     
  15. Kaidonni

    Kaidonni Member

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    My take on it is that LotR was more about the worldbuilding than story and characters, while The Hobbit focused more on story and character (hence why it's so much shorter).
     
  16. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    By way of example, take K J Parker's book The Company (as an aside, KJ Parker is a pseudonym for a person who is supposed to be a well-established writer outside of the fantasy or science fiction genre, though no one seems to know who).

    That book is entirely character driven. The fantasy setting really has little or no bearing on the story. The same story could have been written about a group of soldiers coming home after WWII, or after Iraq, and you'd have to deal with all of the character relationships in the same way. And it is those relationships, and the consequences of them, that are the story itself.
     
  17. Burlbird

    Burlbird Contributor Contributor

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    I don't think of Tolkien's characterization as either coming from his experience nor his technical mastery. "Folklore" and linguistics, on the other hand, were both his professional, life-long occupations, and something his writing craft evolved from, and creativity fed from.
     
  18. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    Thomas Covenant is a good example, I'd say. But even there, we have ONE character to really put a lot of work into. The rest is just magic.
     
  19. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    I have to ask, then, why didn't the writer choose one of those settings instead?
     
  20. maskedhero

    maskedhero Active Member

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    Magic can do what it wants. As such, fantasy is an attractive genre, because you make the rules of the world that exists.
     
  21. maskedhero

    maskedhero Active Member

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    There's also life experience. Fantasy allows you to run full on with your imagination, which is a commendable trait. Real life novels for people who are teenagers aren't going to give us many real life experiences. Those kids are still on date number 1, relationship number 1, and so on.

    So, it isn't limiting them, and allowing them to run wild with imagination.
     
  22. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    I think that's a valid question - why choose a fantasy setting? The counter-question is why not? If I recall correctly, the author has other books set in the same fantasy world, so it was already a setting he'd worked with. I suppose that could be the answer as to why. There are other authors who do similar things, with a subgenre called historical fantasy. Guy Gavriel Kay writes some of this, for example. His books Last Light of the Sun, or Under Heaven, or even the Lions of Al-Rassan, closely mirror real-world history in many respects, are light on magic if they even do more than hint at it, and are character-driven stories that could probably have been written as historical fiction if the author wanted to confine himself to what really happened. I should note, also, that Kay does a lot of historical research in putting these stories together.

    I suppose it just comes down to the author's preference as to what they want to write.
     
  23. EdFromNY

    EdFromNY Hope to improve with age Supporter Contributor

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    I've been thinking about that. Jazzabel hit on part of it before, I think, observing that possibly young writers like the genre because it's what they read growing up. I didn't read a lot as a young child. But then, when I was 13, we moved to a new neighborhood. It was the summer, I didn't know anyone, both my parents were working, I was an only child and was therefore bored out of my skull. One evening, my mom marched me up to the local stationery store and bought a paperback copy of Tom Sawyer. I read it the next day, cover to cover. A switch had been flipped. After school had started, my dad was reading Yes, I Can, the autobiography of Sammy Davis, Jr. I asked him if I could read it when he was done, and he agreed. I didn't read it one day (it was long), but I remember being in class after taking a test. If we finished early, we could do whatever we wanted as long as we didn't disturb anyone else. I was the second one finished, and I took out Mr. Davis (our nun was slightly appalled). I read uninterrupted until I came to a chapter break - turning the page broke my concentration, and I was suddenly aware a lot of noise around me, because everyone had finished. I was (and still am) amazed that reading could allow me to block out all that.

    The works that I read in school that most excited me - The Old Man and the Sea, To Kill A Mockingbird, books of that nature - depicted realistic people in difficult situations. When I was 16, we moved in with my grandmother, and I discovered my late grandfather's extensive book collection. The first item I pulled off the shelf was Leon Uris' Exodus - the first historical I ever read. I also discovered James Thurber, thanks to the short-lived TV show, "My World and Welcome To It". Then, in my senior year, we put on a production of "South Pacific". Shortly before the first performance, a friend of mine mentioned that he was reading the novel upon which the musical was based - James Michener's Tales of the South Pacific. I read it and was enthralled. By the time I started college, I had also read Hawaii. Then The Source.

    In college, I started LOTR. Dozed off just after I started The Two Towers. I just could never understand what all the hubbub was about. And I think part of the reason is that whatever the magic is in the fantasy genre - and there certainly must be something, given the passion with which my nieces approach it - is lost on me, because I connect with either real world characters or other-worldly characters dealing with real-world issues (which is to say that there is some sci-fi that has appealed to me a lot). As soon as the talk is about wizards and witches and demons elves and hobbits, demigods and evildoers for the sake of doing evil, I'm lost.

    So, please don't be offended. It just isn't my thing.
     
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  24. Burlbird

    Burlbird Contributor Contributor

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    Lord of the Rings. High school. Sorry, but I just have to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcNhuHVfz20
    :)
     
  25. EdFromNY

    EdFromNY Hope to improve with age Supporter Contributor

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    Isn't that Captain Soebel??
     
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