OP here. Peerie, I think you may have misunderstood the question at hand. I am not looking to define me as more important than women (or women more so than men, for that matter). I am simply wondering how we, as a collective society, define what makes a 'man'. I will disagree with you that such a term is worthless in modern society. I believe that the need of a male to see ones self as a 'man' is very important to his self worth. Do we not still have rites of passage? Buying a pack of cigarettes when you turn 18, Drinking on your 21st birthday, a young mans first trip to a strip club, graduating highschool or college, the first time you get punched in the face... are these not all important landmarks or milestones in a guy's life? Not that those are the things that make a man, but they do help define a person to them self. This thread is more of an exploration into what things assist a young man to come into his own and view himself as a 'real man'. It could just as easily be a thread about defining 'woman'.
Lol Lemax, I liked that. LordKyle.. all those things you described are rites of passage for both men and women (apart from maybe getting punched in the face although I don't think my younger brother has ever been punched in the face and he's 23). I understand it may be important to you to be defined as a man. It's a subjective thing. I would actually like to open a thread about defining a woman, but it will most likely be like opening Pandora's Box and a plethora of stereotypes and such will ensue...
Okay, now the Lord has spoken, I see more where you're coming from. Well, IMO 'rites of passage' don't come into being a man. I'd say it comes with maturity. Some guys come to this young, some never reach it. 'Being a man' is to do with a male trying to know himself and face up to his strengths, limitations and responsibilities. It probably encompasses - being strong enough to enter into, or at least try to enter into, a relationship with whichever sex he prefers (arrant adulterers or eternal field-players become quite pitiful after a time IMO). No man is a island, as they say. And, - being able to love and nurture children if he should be blessed with them, - being a good and caring family/community member, - remaining brave and positive through misfortune or times of stress and - being a nice person to be around. In other words, the same things that make an inspiring and good woman.
I don't think there are specifically required rites of passage in "Western Society." There are milestones and steps that can be seen as such...but not everyone experiences the same ones. Not every man is punched in the face or buys cigarettes, but those experiences can be steps that a man looks on as having been important to his sense of identity as a mature male in this society. I think you can add to those steps losing virginity, moving out of mom and dad's, getting driver's license, first paycheck, graduating from boot camp, getting someone pregnant...any of all of these plus numerous others can be important rites of passage that a man would consider as key to their identity as a man.
Even this has a certain...incompleteness. While I know that we are more talking about cultures and rites of passage and things...when discussing gender identity, I think you have to take transgendered and intersexed people into consideration. Someone can be anatomically a female, but identify as a man and live as a man and do the rites of passage as a man. Someone can be born with indeterminate genitalia or with a combination of genitals. For these people...biology failed them and whether they are a "man" or not is determined by other things like gender reassignment surgery, hormone therapies, or simply choice to live as a man and claim that identity.
Let's have a rational discussion about an irrational concept. LOL Manly, "becoming a man", masculinity...these concepts are completely subjective. When I left for Vietnam, I was a boy in my father's eyes. When I returned, he said I was a man. Why? It seemed kind of silly to me. Aside from physiological differences, "man" status means the male has satisfied some internalized jumble of values that, when viewed collectively, defines the "male persona" for that person only. Of course, he measures all other men by those standards, rightfully or not. So, when someone fails to live up to his values as a "man", then what is he? A girl? A boy? Less-of-a-man?
That's a whole different can of worms but you're totally right. It adds a new dimension to the gender roles we are all meant to conform to.
Let's look at the word “man.” It can mean the sex of a person. “A man walked into the room.” Or, it can mean a male of certain qualities. “He was a real man to take care of his kids.” Additionally, it can mean anyone who is human. “The aliens were a threat to man.” It is all about context.
If we had a tickbox list and had to tick all of those boxes to be a man, I'd still be a boy in no uncertain terms. As you say, though, there isn't a tickbox, and I still feel that I'm a man. To my mind, a man doesn't have to be the macho man alpha male ultimate protector. A man can be flawed in some fundamental way and still be a man. Let's say there's a war between Iran and the Western powers now, a war on the scale of the World Wars. A serial adulterer, gambler and drinker signs up straight away, because underlying all of those problems he's a patriotic man and believes in the cause he'd be fighting for: justice and peace. On the other hand, a proud family man who's stood by his wife and children for ten years, only enjoys the occasional tipple and doesn't do any more gambling than putting a fiver on the Grand National every year refuses to join up because he has no belief in going to war for a cause. Both men are, to my mind, fundamentally flawed in some way, but they are both identifiably men. As for me? I'm a student without a girlfriend, with no children and no one to protect and earn for. Of those rites of passage above, I've passed my driving test, lived away from home, got punched in the face, got paid and that's about it, really. But I feel I'm a man because despite the lack of experience on certain fronts, I have strength in my convictions and have battled against myself and others and won.
Well, in my opinion whether someone is a "man" or not is all about the respect I accord them. Is a wife-beating jackass a man? I think not. He is a wife-beating jackass, who obviously does not have the courage to show respect to others the way he should. He therefore deserves no respect for himself from me or indeed anyone else. Obviously an extreme example, but still relevant, I feel. In that sense, I agree. Manhood is subjective. If someone does not measure up to my ideals of a man, I will give them less respect because essentially, they have not earned it. A fellow could be 7 feet tall and built like Brock Lesnar with hands like Mike Tyson but if he does not measure up to my values, he receives no more respect than any other failure of a so-called "man" out there. He may gain a little fear from me, but fear is nothing compared to respect. I'm young, so am I a man? I try to uphold my values and I will not sell my self short, I succeed a good deal of the time. Have there been times I've given into weaker parts of my self and lost respect not only in the eyes of others but in my own eyes? Yes, of course. I am not superhuman. I have flaws. Would many consider me not "manly"? Oh, I'm certain of it. I do not drink, I do not do drugs. I never have and never will. I do not "party," I am not promiscuous. I am in a long-term, monogamous relationship with a woman I love and I'm happy that it stays this way. I stand up for myself as much as I possibly can. I pick my fights, I try not to let idiots drag me down to life's hells with them (I falter here especially. I find it difficult to ignore fools. Even myself sometimes ) and I treat everyone with the respect I deem they deserve. Everyone is equal in my eyes until they prove themselves unequal through their actions. (Again, I falter here as well. I let my prejudices color my judgments far too often for comfort and I struggle with this.) I'm sorry if this just appears as if I'm ranting. If I sound a bit harsh, well sorry. These are my beliefs and I'll stand by them. Thank you for your time.
I think there is confusion here between being a man and being what is thought of as 'manly' which some people seem to confuse as 'macho'. Some ideas here, while I respect what you're trying to say, are very era/culture-specific. For example, in some cultures, 'leaving home' for keeps is only done if maybe you've done something you need to escape from, or you can't get a job, something like that. The whole point in some cultures is to stay together, and for the young males in the family to slowly take over the older males position of defending, providing/caring for the family/community. Then, smoking (or drinking too much). Sorry, how can taking up a habit that eveyone knows will have a negative impact on your health, and those around you, be anything to do with being a man? It's really giving in to pressure of some sort from peers/the media/a feeble attempt to assert oneself etc to start smoking/drinking to get drunk. Okay, the rebel may feel it's part of 'growing up' but actually it's the teenager that has this attitude, an older person--if they become a 'man' in the end--looks back with a wry smile. This 'being a man' thing is in the individual's head, and greatly varies, as I've said, according to your culture. But some of the universal values that Sabreur and Dante strive to maintain are actually the long-term measure that proves if a male is 'a man' or just--full of himself. And this 'So, when someone fails to live up to his values as a "man", then what is he? A girl? A boy? Less-of-a-man?' is kind of sad, Nacl. Not that they are necessarily your views, I know you were trying to illustrate a point. But it just conjures up for me a picture of men completely pressurised into conforming to a macho stereotype through a very brainwashing type of childhood, while at the same time determined to view women/'girls' as another stereotype. It's all a bit old-fashioned, isn't it?
Yeah, I think a lot of this discussed is extemely old fashioned, especially saying that the concept of 'man as a species.' Everyone knows that it is an archaic relic from a time when men literally ruled the world. Now, people say the 'human species' or 'humankind' as well as a host of other terms. A lot of the things that have been described here as 'macho' like being a soldier, drinking, being physically strong, insensitive etc, are completely outmoded and probably very offensive to most modern men. You just need to look at successful men in the public eye today to see that traditional models of masculinity aren't inkeeping with how people feel. Justin Timberlake for example sings in falsetto, dances everywhere, lol. Is he any less manly? Well, women don't tend to think so. Chris Martin is also another example. There are probably better examples but I can't think of any.
What is traditional and what isn't is not terribly important to my concepts of manhood. I fear you are misrepresenting the men on this board by saying we value stereotypically "macho" things such as being "physically strong" or "insensitive." I have not seen any of that in this thread. To me, it appears as if YOUR preconceived notions regarding modern men are coloring your judgments here; and not at all for the better. I agree with you that "macho" stereotypes are not definite qualities a man should possess. And many of them (casual misogyny, callousness and boorish behavior, among others) ARE offensive to many men, including myself. However, from what I've seen, none of that has been hoisted up here as a model of manhood. What I'm trying to say is that I'm confused as to what you are railing against. Where is the old-fashioned behavior here? I see none of it. And I assure you, despite being color-blind, the remainder of my vision works quite well.
Woah! I am not the only one who said these views are old fashioned. I'm not railing against anyone. So let's not get into trouble with the mods. You're overreacting.
Lol, I like men who sing in falsetto...well, men who have a great range I suppose. I don't think men were 'allowed' commercially at least, to sing in falsetto, at least not in the mainstream.
I dunno...We've been singing in falsetto for a long time. Earth Wind and Fire, Michael Jackson, even the Castrattis of old. Luckily, we've got counter-tenors now.
Eh, I dunno. Robert Plant and Freddie Mercury had great ranges and they were (still are) wildly popular. The Metal God, Rob Halford, had a STELLAR falsetto and his band is incredibly popular amongst the metalhead community. They even had several mainstream hits such as "Breaking the Law" and "Living after Midnight."
OK my using falsetto as an example was maybe ill considered. There has definitely been the somewhat recent introduction of the Metrosexual. This is more what I was leaning towards.
I sure do like to polish my nails and style my hair hours on end (I am a metal fan afterall). Edit - wait, being sweary and loud kill's that idea.
