1. LiekeHabers

    LiekeHabers New Member

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    What makes a story a good story?

    Discussion in 'General Writing' started by LiekeHabers, Feb 14, 2022.

    Hi everyone,

    I have a school project in which I have to find out what readers and writers (dis)like about stories, what they would like to see more and why etc.
    So I have a few questions for you, if you’d like to help me with this. It would mean a lot, though. You don’t have to answer every question, of course.

    • What gerne do you prefer to write/read and why?

    • What are your favourite tropes and why?

    • What are your least favourite tropes and why?

    • What would you like to see more often in books?

    • What would you like to see less in books?

    • What makes a good fantasy/science fiction?

    • What makes a good thriller/horror/mystery story?

    • What makes a good romance?

    • What makes a good poem?

    • What makes a good historical fiction?
    Thank you so much for helping me!

    Have a good day/night:)
     
  2. Lawless

    Lawless Active Member

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    Write: science fiction because I can make things up the way I want them and don't have know how they are in the real world.
    Read: science fiction because it tells about cool and unusual things.

    In English-language crime mystery: that the crime is (almost) always a murder. Germans and Russians have written great books about theft, kidnapping, counterfeiting etc., but the English-language world seems to think if no one gets murdered, it's not worth writing about.
    In thrillers: that the hero has almost won, but close to the end an unfortunate accident threatens everything he has achieved so far, and it's only by a lucky chance that he wins after all. It's so infinitely childish and ruins the entire book for me.

    Realistic heroes who follow their own interests and act like normal human beings would act, such as in "A Kind of Anger" by Eric Ambler. In the majority of novels, the protagonist is either an absurdly unbelievable saint or an utterly unlikeable "antihero".

    Sex depicted in vague embarrassed hints.

    I don't read horror.
    Other genres: inventive setting, exciting events, likeable characters succeeding in getting what they want.

    That men act like men, women act like women and things go well by the end.

    Believability. That the characters act in a way people in that particular time and location would plausibly act, rather than the author trying to make us believe they thought and felt exactly like the modern-day Americans would.
     
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  3. Lazaares

    Lazaares Contributor Contributor

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    I write little Kafkaesque snippets, while my larger projects are all low fantasy.

    Reading - for the past years, see reasons below - purely non-fiction / historical / literary classics.

    Inherent good & evil. I'm a romantic by heart (the movement, not the flirting), which means I believe there is fatalism around good and evil. I enjoy irredeemable evil characters as well as characters that sacrifice themselves simply to act good.

    Not a trope much within literature, but a trope outside in the "meta" of writing - that nothing is original. It's an inherently destructive assertion that is, by simple logic, a fallacy. Spouting it to young writers achieves little more than demoralization / promotion of homogeneity.

    1. Character death. I also roleplay as a hobby (both as player & DM) and have learned that characters have a natural life-cycle after which they're best discarded - shelved or killed off.

    2. Harder choices. I feel there's been a twist in modern narratives where character choices seem to matter less and less, and where authors are afraid to give their characters choices between morally repugnant actions, out of fear they'd be seen as lesser / evil. This is more apparent in cinema, but then again, I have shied away from reading recent releases due to another detail mentioned down the line.

    Politics.

    Indie authors don't quite have this issue, neither does historical non-fiction (for now, keep it to the movies, Hollywood!) - I so despise THE MESSAGE appearing everywhere and filtering any narrative produced recently. Most of the time it's done at the expense of narrative, and if you highlight a work's shit (for any sane reason like overdone dialogue, info dumps or inconsistency), people will simply proclaim you an enemy of THE MESSAGE and a hater who can't deal with progress/diversity/representation/empowerment/equality. If narrative writing is garbage, then Hollywood is the ultimate dung pile nowadays - also because decades of financial exploitation of screenwriters had them protest, resists and quit their jobs.

    Immersion and worldbuilding. It's the main difference between those genres and the rest, and generally the reason why publishes afford a dozen thousand more words in content for them. A good world should feel alive, should prompt investment from the reader into details and should set the narrative as an event of many, and not the only thing that ever happened in the world.

    I believe it's the tempo & tension that matters the most for those books. I admit, it's been a while since I've read into those genres (I went through my Whodunit? phase 10 years ago). Characters might be interesting and your mystery might be perfect but the wrong pacing will lose my interest and I'll put down the book. It's the reason Why I believe these genres, especially crime fiction, tends to be much shorter than the rest. If I recall right Agatha Christie's books weren't actually novels at all, most of them clocking in the novella category - E.A. Poe wrote even shorter works.

    Can't comment; it's a genre I don't read.

    I don't read poems except for classics - though I do enjoy quality song lyrics that match poetry. Unfortunately for modern authors I'm subscribe to the romantic-era notion of a poem which means I prefer them rigid, adhering to strict structure and carrying passion/emotions. A poet friend of mine is a heavy critique of that as she's one of those people claiming a poem needs no rhymes.

    For historical fiction it's easier to describe what makes it bad in my eyes.

    I heavily dislike when an author creates an OC and then goes down a list of "major events in [year the story is set]" and randomly inserts the character into every one of them. Steven Saylor's books are an example for this.

    I also dislike when modern views / ideals are projected over a historical character to portray them as "superior" or "better" than their contemporaries. To me, the apex of historical fiction is Maurice Druon's books - gritty, rooted heavily in actual events, thrilling and with a surprising educational value. The Aubrey-Maturin novels are similar good examples.
     
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  4. Cress Albane

    Cress Albane Active Member

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    Write - Fantasy, Science Fiction, Horror, and sometimes Historical Fiction. Why? Cause it's easy to use allegories in these genres.
    Read - Everything that seems interesting, no matter the genre.

    Rivalries. When well written, they offer a chance for self-reflection, especially if you can relate with two characters that stand in opposition.

    Adventure ends in romance. It reinforces the idea that simple participation in the same events somehow can make a good relationship, which is unbelievably naive.

    Characters defined by the unfolding story, instead of characters defined by their backstory.

    Trauma/tragedy as an excuse for toxic/creepy/awful behavior. And the general concept that tragedy is supposed to make a good character.

    Good underlying motifs that tie the story, setting, and atmosphere into something of a meta-commentary.

    Terrifying motifs that tie the story, setting, and atmosphere into something of a meta-commentary.

    A pair that fills each other's deficiencies.

    Subtlety. And a good understanding of the language. And 20 revisions.

    The author making a well-researched statement on the historical period he/she chooses for her/his story.
     
  5. Catriona Grace

    Catriona Grace Mind the thorns Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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    What gerne do you prefer to write/read and why? I read a lot of up-market fiction, historical fiction, and mystery. I write mostly upmarket fiction right now, though I've written fantasy and historical YA in the past. I'd love to write a good mystery, but haven't managed it yet.

    What would you like to see more often in books? Skilled use of language, imagery, and imagination.

    What would you like to see less in books? Repetitious plots and themes, especially in series. It is so common for the first one or two books in a series to be refreshing, interesting, and engaging, only to be followed by ten books that consist of the same cookbook formula.

    What makes a good fantasy/science fiction? Clarity, interesting characters, and a plot that consists of more than waving wands and fighting battles against an evil foe. Too often writers become so involved in "world building" that they forget to tell a story.

    What makes a good thriller/horror/mystery story? The unexpected. If at some point in the book, I find myself thinking, "Wow, I didn't see that
    coming," I am a happy reader.

    What makes a good romance? Strength of characters, presence of a solid plot, and absence of sticky sweet sentiment.

    What makes a good historical fiction? Great research and strong characters whose compelling personal stories are artfully woven into the historical events of their period.

    Good luck with your project. I hope you'll consider sharing the results of your research with us when your research is done.
     
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  6. Night Herald

    Night Herald The Fool Contributor

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  7. Joe_Hall

    Joe_Hall I drink Scotch and I write things

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    I prefer to write fantasy and sci-fi just because it gives me complete liberty...my world, my rules. I read absolutely anything, but I have a special affinity for history, especially period authors. I like to incorporate history into my fiction when I write.
    Good always wins because when we stop believing it, the real world is a dark place and so are stories.
    Going along with the previous, that when good wins the sun shines and flowers sprout. In real life when good faces darkness, there are always scars. Always. The Allies won WW2 but it didn't bring back the 10+ million that died in the Holocaust
    1. Protagonists that act like humans...we all have flaws and I like a complex characters who are not Jesusbuddaghandi nor Stalinhitlermao...write real characters.
    2. Particularly in fantasy, unique magic systems. Lets face it, in a world with magic if it can be used willy-nilly there would probably be more dark lords than not. Cool limitations, counters, or how its accessed is always cool.
    Gratuitous sex just because characters have genitals. I'm not a prude and I write sex in my works but some authors seem to vent their frustration at not getting laid by writing about it in graphic detail without having any plot-driving reason to.
    World building and consistency. It drives me nuts when worlds are half developed or half through a series the author changes his/her mind and tries to patch the plot hole with some bs. Make your world, write its rules and stick to it. It might also be because I used to play DnD but I liked the same thing from a good GM/DM.
    In my opinion: a plot twist. I hate reading a story and knowing what is going to happen 1/2 to 2/3 of the way through...something totally unexpected that you never saw coming...maybe from a minor character who suddenly emerges at the end...
    To quote Leonard Choen's song recorded by Jeff Buckley, Hallelujah: "And love is not a victory march, its a cold and its a broken Hallelujah". Romance is cool but not when it's "The Prince who loved me" or some such pulp title with pulpier content. Anyone married or in a committed relationship will tell you its the ups and downs, the good and the bad but that's what makes it grand and life worth living with your partner. It also, in my opinion makes for a much better story than the majority of what is marketed as romance.
    Probably a bad person to ask about poems. I prefer classical pre-modern poetry. Writing lines of non-rhyming mish mash without meaning doesn't qualify. Go read To Althea, from Prison by Richard Lovelace or I have a Rendezvous with Death by Alan Seeger and you will have an idea of what I consider a good poem.
    Putting your character in a historical context but not using the context or real life characters make your character. It's one thing to have a character who lives in the old west and might bump into a famous figure or mention them; it is another thing entirely when your character backs down a famous real-life gunman and that is their claim to fame in your book. It just sucks the real-life guy isn't around to defend their honor from your in inability to create a character without trading on a famous name.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2022
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  8. Catriona Grace

    Catriona Grace Mind the thorns Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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    I thought Leonard Cohen wrote Hallelujah and Jeff Buckley recorded it. (Pardon the digression; I'm just all confused now.)
     
  9. Joe_Hall

    Joe_Hall I drink Scotch and I write things

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    You are correct
     
  10. B.E. Nugent

    B.E. Nugent Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    In fairness, it is arguable that Jeff Buckley completely rewrote the song without changing a word. In my opinion, his is the definitive version.
     
  11. Joe_Hall

    Joe_Hall I drink Scotch and I write things

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    Fixed it...there now we can all be happy :p
     
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  12. Catriona Grace

    Catriona Grace Mind the thorns Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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    That poor song has been done to death by everyone from David Buckley to The Canadian Tenors to random grade school children's choirs. I hear the opening chords and automatically think, "Oh, dear goodness, can't you sing something else?"

    Now that we've all digressed from the original topic... ;)
     
  13. Travalgar

    Travalgar Active Member

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    There aren't any set formulas that will reliably create a good story. Writing is art, not exact science.
    Stop trying to formularize it, writing AI in disguise!
     

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