1. WritingInTheDark

    WritingInTheDark Active Member

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    What would make a fantasy race more interesting extinct than extant?

    Discussion in 'Setting Development' started by WritingInTheDark, Nov 3, 2021.

    Bit of an odd question that popped into my head in the worldbuilding process. The central premise of my setting is that basically every single mythical humanoid or metahuman humanity's ever believed was real... is real, or at least was real. They're collectively called immortals, and each species is descended from a single progenitor, a former human who spontaneously magically mutated into the first of their new kind, and since any union between an immortal and a human produces an immortal offspring, plenty were able to expand from just themselves into an entire species.

    But many did not. Some were killed before they were ever able to have children, others used to thrive and flourish in ages past but were wiped out when more powerful and effective competitors came along. Every single mythical humanoid humanity ever came up with used to be real, but not all of them are alive today.

    But until now, I didn't really get to thinking about which ones to actually give the axe and designate as lost, extinct species no longer with us in the setting's year of 1998. It's... a difficult question. It's like deciding which characters I should kill off before the reader even meets them. And I don't even know where to begin addressing that other than picking the really weird and gimmicky ones that don't sound like they'd last long if they had to compete with the big boys and girls like vampires and werewolves.

    So this seems like an interesting topic of discussion: what qualities could a species have that would make them more interesting as an extinct species than as one still with us?
     
  2. Le Panda Du Mal

    Le Panda Du Mal Contributor Contributor

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    In HP Lovecraft's At the Mountains of Madness explorers in Antarctica discover a city built millions of years ago by an apparently extinct alien species (referred to, rather unhelpfully, as "the elder things"). They learn about the elder things' history through various bas reliefs and other artifacts, tracing the glorious days of their civilization, their wars and cultural triumphs, to a period of decline ending in social disintegration and their eventual disappearance. There are also hints of some unnamable, terrifying force which they fear and tried to keep at bay, which may eventually have spelled their doom.

    What makes this extinct species interesting? Partly that, despite the utterly bizarre (from a human perspective) physical form, culture, social organization, etc. of this species, they bear many parallels, some quite alarming, to human civilization- as the narrator exclaims, "They were men!" (Some have argued that, as one of Lovecraft's later works, this represents some repudiation of his past xenophobia). It is also a stark warning that no matter how resplendent and advanced a culture is, it can be cast into oblivion whether by its own errors or something stronger and more terrible in a hostile universe.
     
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  3. evild4ve

    evild4ve Critique is stranger than fiction Supporter Contributor

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    "Immortal" sounds odd to me if they can go extinct.
    And if it's the characters who carry the interest, arguably the immortals are all plot devices and it's open season on any of them if it sheds light on a character.
    In a way, making something extinct automatically makes it more interesting - as there's an additional descriptor. Extinct-werewolves are more interesting than werewolves, in the same way as red-werewolves are.

    But maybe:-

    Ecology: Werewolves were important in controlling the numbers of Baphomets, who now have to adhere to strict birth control licensing since their apex predator went extinct
    Similarity to human stories (or the stories of other hominid species): maybe the last few surviving Elves were found on an isolated island. Let's call it... Christmas Island. They had to be evacuated from their ancestral homeland as they were on the verge of starvation. They no longer possess language, agriculture, pointy red hats etc. Meta-anthropologists work out that their civilization destroyed itself by cutting down all of the trees and carving them into little wooden toys.
    Species that were real pretending to be mythological
    Species that are extant pretending to be extinct
    Intertextuality/Cultural weight: vampires and werewolves will be more interesting than gnolls, just because readers have seen them in more stories. There's a reason Bella Swan doesn't cop off with a gnoll. If werewolves were extinct and gnolls weren't, misidentification or other comparisons might always annoy the gnolls.
    Novelty/Obscurity: e.g. Haruki Murakami adapting kappas into INKlings in Hard-Boiled Wonderland.
    Tragedy: if half of a symbiotic pair goes extinct (ghouls aren't the same without their vampires)
    Injustice: sprites have survived but not brownies. They make out like they're benevolent woodland spirits, but it's them who tipped brownies over the cliff by filching all their acorn-hats so they got pneumonia
     
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  4. Robert Musil

    Robert Musil Comparativist Contributor

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    I hope this doesn't take things too far off base, but my question would be...why isn't the original human race extinct in this scenario? You don't mention any specific examples of immortals but I'm thinking if humans have to compete with vampires, werewolves, etc. for basically the same ecological niche, then...how do we win that fight? Unless that's the twist ending, that somehow normal humans have some superpower (or "superpower") that allows us to win. No idea what that would be.
     
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  5. WritingInTheDark

    WritingInTheDark Active Member

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    There's a monthly... "ecological disturbance", shall we say. A magical event that gets increasingly dangerous for immortals the further beyond 1 in 1,000 humans the combined immortal population gets.
     
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  6. QueenOfPlants

    QueenOfPlants Definitely a hominid

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    I think good explanations for why some species aren't extinct come from their usefulness for other, more powerful species.
    Humans are still there because vampires feed on them. They don't want to slaughter all their livestock, they want to breed it.
    One could come up with similar reasons for other species - maybe those weren't powerful, but could offer some service to the others.

    That could also mean that very disruptive species might get killed off by an alliance of the others. Maybe giants just destroyed too much, so they were offed.

    Apart from that I'm at a loss about which species would become more interesting if extinct, sorry.
     
  7. WritingInTheDark

    WritingInTheDark Active Member

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    This is actually a big factor for why certain immortal species haven't gone extinct. Dwarves and arachne, for example, find themselves getting a lot of assistance from other, less conspicuous immortal species because they have the ability to facilitate enchanted weapons and clothing respectively, things that are far more difficult and primitive without their assistance.
     
  8. Robert Musil

    Robert Musil Comparativist Contributor

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    Did you ever see Daybreakers? It's a great movie, with basically this premise. The vampires have won, humans have become just a commoditized food source...but, it turns out vampires are just as greedy and short-sighted in stewarding their natural resources as humans were, and it causes problems.
     
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  9. QueenOfPlants

    QueenOfPlants Definitely a hominid

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    No, I have not seen it, as you can probably imagine.
     
  10. Friedrich Kugelschreiber

    Friedrich Kugelschreiber marshmallow Contributor

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    the things they leave behind, for the living to dream and wonder about. What’s so evocative about a grave, compared to a living person? What’s so fascinating about a ghost town?
     
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  11. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    Mystery.
     
  12. Iain Aschendale

    Iain Aschendale Lying, dog-faced pony Marine Supporter Contributor

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    What makes the builders of the pyramids more interesting than the residents of modern-day Cairo (no offense to any present)? The fact that if we want to know what they eat, how they get it, and what they do for fun all we have to do is visit and ask. Since many of them speak English, we don't even have to go to the trouble of learning Arabic at our local community colleges to get a halfway decent answer.

    Why did the werewolf go extinct? Did they have a more human or canine social structure? Was there a connection?
     
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  13. Joe_Hall

    Joe_Hall I drink Scotch and I write things

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    Sometimes the very fact they are extinct make them more interesting. Why, for instance, is a Woolly Mammoth more interesting than an African Elephant? Same with ancient civilizations...there are people who can still make flint arrowheads today but they will never be as interesting as the Clovis culture. Being extinct always gives a bit of mystery that we have to figure out as we have nothing to go on. And we as humans love puzzles.
     
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  14. Travalgar

    Travalgar Active Member

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    Like what others have said before me, species became more interesting when they're extinct. I think you had it backwards. Instead of deciding which species should get the axe and which species should survive to the present day, just pick any species to be extinct and decide what kind of story you're going to write to make them interesting.
     
  15. MartinM

    MartinM Banned

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    @WritingInTheDark

    It’s a thought-provoking question.... Sorry for the length. The reader upon learning a said fantasy race became extinct must immediately feel this seems out of place in context to your story. That seems impossible or highly unlikely given the worlds current surroundings. He’s become intrigue to find out more... This is more of a how this could happen rather than character styles of a race.

    All life as a symbiotic relationship within its environment, that’s dynamic. The Gazelle can run slightly longer than the Cheater. Thus, weaker or inferior Gazelle’s are weeded out of the herd. The Cheater has a limit to its own population size mechanic dependent on the Gazelle herds. This fine balance evolves and changes over the years. An advantage shift towards either one of the animals, without a counter will result in both species probably dying out. This is all basic stuff, but needs thinking about.

    Fantasy Races also need to fit in and show a solid symbiotic partnership within the world. You’ve stated a monthly ecological disturbance creates a population cap for the immortals to 1 in 1,000. In 1998 earth had a 6bn head count meaning your immortal population is 600,000. This number as doubled since 1960. Human death rate per 1,000 people fell from 18 in 1960 down to 8 in 1998. Humans are living longer also...!

    The link between your original Human and the different immortal species of offspring could be something as a living soul. Each individual immortal no matter from what race needs to carry 1,000 living human souls. If this number drops, he starts to FADE. If above 1,000 his elemental construction begins to break.

    Now say the Human created 5 different kinds of immortals twenty thousand years ago. Here the human population is tiny (10,000) and in fact the immortals are used to safe guard the species. Like all things as time passes the five different immortals with very different skills vie for power. Leading to war and soul hording from the largest groups.

    The extinction event happens when there is a sudden drop in the human population. In 1350 The Black Death reduced the Global population by 20% from 500m down to 400m people. The Immortals are over populated by 100k. This quick and large drop in humans would mean the smaller races of immortals would suffer more even leading to an extinction. The larger races having actual more deaths would survive to carry on... if that makes sense?

    Why I bring up 1960-1998 pop size, shows the surviving races face a massive power or soul grab. The largest Immortal race in 1960 within thirty years could become the smallest. This is all outside whatever skills they have.

    Am really sorry for the length, but the idea shows even OP Immortals can go extinct.

    MartinM.
     
  16. Stephen1974

    Stephen1974 Active Member

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    What would make races go extinct?

    Lack of breeding opportunities.
    You could have a restriction on children, which can lead to problems further down the road. Take china for example, restricting families to one child led "parents" to kill daughters in order to have sons. Now china faces a problem with a lack of femals (ok, not exactly a lack becase there are so many chinese, but scale it down and it would be a lack and therefore a problem)
    They could face issues of sterility, either natural or artificially introduced, either by accident or intentionaly.
    There could be sexual transmitted diseases that deter breeding.
    Inbreeding could lead to high rates of infant mortality.
    You could have a work driven society (like white western society) where women want to work instead of have kids.

    You want to get away from humanistic reasons

    Perhaps fertility only occurs at certain times of the year and that cycle gets disrupted.
    Perhaps pregnancy can only happen with the aid of certain foods or liquids and that supply has been exhausted or destroyed. Perhaps it needs to involve magic but the magic is fading.
     
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  17. Lawless

    Lawless Active Member

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    That they did things we can't understand. Like the Dwemer in Skyrim.
     

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