1. naruzeldamaster

    naruzeldamaster Senior Member

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    When is the best time to substitute 'x said with y tone' ?

    Discussion in 'General Writing' started by naruzeldamaster, Sep 12, 2021.

    So one thing I notice that I do a lot, and I mean a LOT more than I should is do 'x said with y tone'
    I know it's usually best to not do that, but sometimes I have trouble coming up with something better to cap off the dialogue with. I've tried describing what they're doing or how they're feeling (sometimes a little too directly) but that feels 'off' sometimes lol

    I know the general rule is NOT to do it I think? Using 'said with y tone' I mean?
    I think it's one of those 'rules' where every writer has their own balance or something.
     
  2. Midlife Maniac

    Midlife Maniac Active Member

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    An exercise I’ve found useful in the past, both in teaching and my own writing, is generating lists of action verbs to potentially replace “said”.

    You can make columns for specific tones you wish to emote, like anger or surprise, then start generating some juicy verbs like: sputtered, barked, gasped, etc.

    Another thing I do is imply tone with movement or facial expressions. I watched is eyebrows collide as he spoke in increased volume, “Why did you eat my hamburger?”
     
  3. Chromewriter

    Chromewriter Contributor Contributor

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    Don't describe every detail. Sometimes tone can be implied from the conversation by itself. One thing I struggle with is trying to always give an accurate picture, so you end up trying to control the whole tone and mood of the scene. But then it becomes monotonous and it dilutes the impact of the scene.

    Same with trying to make every bit of detail interesting. Sometimes you have to think about controlling the flow over trying to make it dense.
     
  4. Seven Crowns

    Seven Crowns Moderator Staff Supporter Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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    Your preposition (with Y tone) is acting as an adverbial. You're writing around the simple "said X Y-ly" with Y just being an -ly adverb. They're both describing "said," and serve the same function. That's not to say that -ly is always better. Yes, it's shorter, but there's no always solution to these things. Sometimes you want to use extra words just to add weight at the end of the sentence. It just feels right. It's a matter of taste and rhythm.

    So I think what you're really asking is "when should I add an adverb to said?" And that's a big question too.

    As has been said above, if the words can carry the delivery fully, you let them. In essence, the character is showing a tone without the narrator ever stepping in and explaining it. As a simple goal, that's worth having. It's very elegant and usually the right approach. To me, the tricky issue is when does the narrator need to step in and tell the reader more? Yeah, it's show/tell. Again.

    My theory is that a story is all about where we place emphasis. Show places much emphasis, and tell places only a little. On average . . . (Here is where I would normally type tons of paragraphs, but I'm going to restrain myself. It'll still be long)
    1. She set his beer beside him. "I love you," she said.
    2. She set his beer beside him. "I love you," she said icily.
    3. She set his beer beside him. "I love you," she said with an icy tone.
    4. She set his beer beside him. "I love you," she said without caring to meet his eyes.
    5. She set his beer beside him, and when it nearly tipped off the table, he caught it. She was already turning. "I love you," she said.
    The first is direct, but the tone isn't clear. The reader's assumption there will most likely be wrong. The other lines build on the moment to set a tone. I can't just change the spoken phrase because that's what I want her to say, so the tone can't be fixed with a shift in dialog. So, enter the narrator. The -ly adverb is the simplest fix and the others take more effort. It's all about the emphasis of the moment. The more important the moment is, the more explanation it gets.

    2 works with just an adverb
    3 works with a preposition. The whole bit is acting like an adverb, which is why it's an adverbial in addition to being a preposition. This is basically what you're doing.
    4 is also an adverbial-preposition, but the tone of the delivery isn't being directly described. Its contained action implies it. It lives on the edge of show/tell.
    5 uses pure action. The tone is never mentioned, but the reader feels it anyway. It's fully showing.​

    I guess that number 1 could act like 5 if there is a lot of buildup in previous paragraphs. The reader can figure out the tone if it's been established. That could be done over the scene.

    The deciding factor between the "telly" 2 & 3, and the "showy" 4 & 5 is the importance of the moment. It's called the "proportion." You add emphasis to moments that need more proportion. That can be done with imagery, deeper explanations, the character's musings, repetition, etc. A common rookie mistake is to put proportion where it's not needed. Then you get purple prose, rambling prose, and other undesirable outcomes. You have to decide how important that moment is and what needs to be said to prove it. Who solves that, the MC or the narrator? It sounds like that's what you're concerned about. And then of course there's the problem of relying on one structure (said X in a Y tone). If it's appearing on every page then you have a structural issue that readers will notice.

    So I'd say, watch out for the structual rep and make sure that the moment deserves emphasis. If it needs more emphasis, move away from the "X in a Y tone" pattern. If it needs less or none, then just chop it. Some of them will stay, because it's not a mistake. It's just a device that you favor. Let the dialog carry the tone when you can, and understand that the scene itself may be guiding that tone before you even get to the paragraph.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2021
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  5. naruzeldamaster

    naruzeldamaster Senior Member

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    So it's less about what's capping off the dialogue (same with he said/she said) but more the feel and importance of what was said?
    In one of my dialogues I have the female character laugh at a statement, but I cap the dialogue off with 'that was the laugh of someone going insane' (although that may be a bit tell-y but I'm uncertain it is) implying what the laugh would sound like. (not to imply that she was going insane, but more like, the statement she was laughing at sounded insane to her)
    In other dialogues that aren't meant to be impactful I just go with 'said with y tone'
    I guess my concern is that I'm doing the latter a bit too much, it certainly feels like I'm getting slightly better at balancing it though.
    I'll keep that advice in mind, I had totally forgotten about the shorter -ly words.

    Some of my scenes are just long periods of dialogue with descriptors inbetween what was said. Maybe I need to break those bits up a little bit more than I have been to allow the characters to feel.
     
  6. Seven Crowns

    Seven Crowns Moderator Staff Supporter Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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    I think so. It could be that your inner voice hears the need for more weight at the end of a line. (You should trust that voice. It is very often right.) In that case, you're building a bridge out of the dialog. The moment gets emphasized as a byproduct, but the main goal is to let the narrator speak because you're about to step out of the immediate moment. Maybe the scene is ending, or maybe you're moving into the inner thoughts of the MC and out of the dialog and immediate setting. So those extra words serve a purpose. They let the narrator speak enough to move the focus of the story.

    But none of this really goes through your head when you do it. You can just feel that something more needs to be said in narration. I can't see your page, but I can really imagine this happening. We're told not to use long tags everywhere because they make dialog choppy, but you can use a long tag deliberately because you want to drift away from the dialog. Sometimes that interruption is needed, and sometimes the interruption is signaling a change in direction.
     
  7. naruzeldamaster

    naruzeldamaster Senior Member

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    Is it weird that I usually end a scene with a 'what will happen next?' kind of paragraph. I don't explicitly do a 'find out next time' (unless I'm writing fanfic for a TV show that does it and that's part of the joke) but it's more of a 'here's what the character is thinking/feeling about the immediate future' kinda deal. It's a habit I've had since I started writing in middle school, and I don't think I'll ever break it. Something just feels 'off' if I don't lol

    As far as this topic, I do think it's my inner voice going 'something feels off' but while I'm writing the rough draft I can never think of what it is. I guess part of that is cause I'm the pantsiest pantser to ever pants, but I'm not sure heh.
    I'll make an effort to balance out the use of said with Y tone, maybe I'll try using it a bit more sparingly. And exchange 'said with y tone' with something more show-ey like 'oozing with sarcasm' which I used to do a fair bit too much heh.

    I guess my main flaw as a writer is indecision, too many ways I want to tell a scene and I get hung up on the exact perfect way to write it.
     
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  8. Midlife Maniac

    Midlife Maniac Active Member

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    No worries! I think those bits become more apparent on the second or third read. If you are in the flow writing your first draft, just keep going! I just did a quick third read of one of my chapters and realized I used the word “adventure” way too many times on a single page. Adverb choice and nuance don’t always come correct on the first go either.
     

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