1. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    Who specifically does the word British refer to?

    Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by Xoic, Feb 1, 2021.

    I used to think anyone living in the British isles could be called British or a Brit, but on a YouTube video featuring discussion between an Irishman and an Englishman it became apparent they mean specifically the English when they say British. Is there a broad sense in which the Scottish, Irish, Northern Irish, and the Welsh are all considered British, and a more specific sense in which it means only the English? Or is the idea of them all being British related to some earlier British Empire thing, like in Monty Python and the Holy Grail where King Arthur says he's the King of the Britons (if I remember it right) and one of the shit-shovelling peasants says "Who are the Britons?". The reply from the good King being "We all are."

    Please help educate this ignorant Colonial Yank.
     
  2. Naomasa298

    Naomasa298 HP: 10/190 Status: Confused Contributor

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    Yes. Not the southern Irish though.

    No. But people sometimes use it that way.
     
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  3. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    Ok, thanks. These guys were joking around a lot, playfully insulting each others' heritage, and only occasionally did war seem likely to break out over it, so I assume they were flinging terms around rather loosely.
     
  4. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    Lol, I understand the people of Northern Ireland gets pretty upset that many people don't know it's a country, and just call them Irish.
     
  5. B.E. Nugent

    B.E. Nugent Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    I can tell you the Irish don't take kindly to being assumed into Britain, certainly, and also the British Isles. There's only about 800 years of history to cover, but Britain is a political entity comprising 4nations of England, Scotland, Wales and the six counties of Northern Ireland. The 26 counties of the Republic of Ireland is commemorating 100 years of independence after a war of independence that was followed by a civil war. Sound familiar? Also, other islands and territories like the Isle of Man may have a specific relationship to Britain that I'm not aware of. Identity is a sensitive issue and you will quickly discover why political discussions are discouraged on this site if you poke that bear. Having said that, we have 32 county teams representing Ireland in rugby and field hockey. Generally, the opposing viewpoints are much less violent than heretofore, tg.
     
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  6. Naomasa298

    Naomasa298 HP: 10/190 Status: Confused Contributor

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    "Great Britain" is often used interchangeably with "United Kingdom", but neither is technically correct - the full name is "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland".
     
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  7. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    Ah ok, I thought Naomasa was joking about southern Ireland not being part of Britain. I'm glad you chimed in here, now I see what he meant. So I'm assuming the Irishman in the video must be from the Republic of Ireland.
     
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  8. B.E. Nugent

    B.E. Nugent Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    It's more complicated than that really. There have traditionally been two conflicting communities in Northern Ireland. Nationalists who seek a unified Ireland of 32 counties and Unionists who identify with "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" . Your guy on YouTube could have been a southerner or a nationalist from Northern Ireland. Personally,I think whichever flea is closest to the head can claim ownership of the dog.
     
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  9. Lazaares

    Lazaares Contributor Contributor

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    England = Kingdoms of York, Mercia, East Anglia, Kent, Essex, Sussex, Wessex.
    Britain = Political union of England & Wales
    Great Britain = Political union of Britain & Scotland
    United Kingdom = Political union of Great Britain & Northern Ireland
    British Islands = Great Britain + Channel Islands Isle of Man
    British Isles = Isle of Great Britain + Isle of Ireland

    The issue with "British" is that some Scots consider themselves Britons, some don't. But you're safe to call the Welsh & the English "British". Further issue is that some Northern Irish (the Unionists) also prefer to be called British.
     
  10. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    Complicated indeed! o_O

    To (sort of) quote Alice: "Complicateder and complicateder... " :p

    I've opened a much bigger can of worms here than I realized. But now I at least have a much better understanding than "They're all British" or "Only the English are British". No way I'll ever remember all that though. Not that I need to.
     
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  11. JLT

    JLT Contributor Contributor

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    That's a pretty concise summary, except that I would hesitate to put the "Isle of Ireland" among the "British Isles." Although it was historically seen that way in the first millenium, the culture of Ireland was quite different from the rest of the Britons. The island was absorbed into the United Kingdom politically for a while, but regained its independence (except for Northern Ireland) ever since, with its own government. Most Irish folk would bristle if you implied that they were "Britons" in any way.

    To confuse the issue further, remember that many Britons left the Isle of Great Britain and settled in northern France, becoming "Less Britain" as opposed to "Great Britain." It retained its British language well into the last century, where it was mutually intelligible to that of Wales. That area is now called "Brittany," in fact. So those people might rightly consider themselves "Britons," too.
     
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  12. Lazaares

    Lazaares Contributor Contributor

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    It's set-in-stone geographic definition. I understand the Irish want differentiation, but unfortunately, there hasn't been a better name made up for the pair of Isles + their auxiliary islands. Isles of Albion? Caledonian Island chain? Celtic Isles? They just sound off.

    Strange enough, Ireland is part of the British Isles but isn't a British Island.
     
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  13. Naomasa298

    Naomasa298 HP: 10/190 Status: Confused Contributor

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    "British Islands" includes Northern Ireland.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Islands
     
  14. Naomasa298

    Naomasa298 HP: 10/190 Status: Confused Contributor

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    I had this same discussion on another forum, and someone made the case that the "British" are people who speak Brittonic languages - of which English is not one!
     
  15. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    Oh god, what have I done? This could end in war!! :eek:
     
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  16. Naomasa298

    Naomasa298 HP: 10/190 Status: Confused Contributor

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    I shall throw in something else just to confuse things further.

    Falkland Islanders and Gibraltans regard themselves as British, despite neither being part of the United Kingdom.
     
  17. B.E. Nugent

    B.E. Nugent Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    Told ya.
     
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  18. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    That is Britons used ethnically to mean the remaining celtic areas... Scots, irish, welsh, cornish and bretons (from Brittany in France)... which is not the same thing as being British... the Bretons are definitely not british, although some of them say they are not french either

    English is a corruption of Aenglish... the language spoken by the Angles, who were a germanic/saxon tribe, who dominated much of what is now england during the dark ages (apart from the areas held by the Danes of course... British history is complex)
     
  19. DK3654

    DK3654 Almost a Productive Member of Society Contributor

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles
     
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  20. NigeTheHat

    NigeTheHat Contributor Contributor

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    They are British Overseas Territories, though, which I think is effectively all the bits of the old empire that didn't want to leave. Plus a chunk of Antarctica because sure, why not.
     
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  21. Selbbin

    Selbbin The Moderating Cat Staff Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    Is it though? I don't know much about English territorial zoning but hasn't Mercia not been a kingdom for over 1000 years? A lot changed in what constituted England in the time that followed, including mainland territories.

    Or do you mean roughly the land those kingdoms once formed.
     
  22. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    yeah that definition isn't quite right... for one thing the Scottish border has moved several times since the days of those kingdoms, as has the welsh border... and the Kernow (what is now cornwall plus part of western devon) was not part of wessex, but is part of England now.

    the definition lazares gives of Britain is also incorrect - there was never a Britain that was defined as being a union of England and Wales... the Kingdom of England included wales as conquered territory from 1535 until the act of unity in 1707, at which point England ceased to exist as a separate kingdom, and merged with the Kingdom of Scotland to become the Kingdom of Great Britain

    The unity act of 1801 merged the Kingdom of Great Britain with the Kingdom of Ireland to become the united kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, until 1922 when Eire gained independence and the British kingdom was renamed as the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
     
  23. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    And Northumbria. Which for a time went as far north Linlithgow, but had it's capital was mostly at Bamburgh - in the current English county of Northumberland. Because of the movement of the England/Scotland boarder and the mixing of the peoples, Berwick doesn't feel English, it isn't in the English sports leagues, but it is in England.

    Identity can become pretty complicated.
     
  24. Naomasa298

    Naomasa298 HP: 10/190 Status: Confused Contributor

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    York was Danish for much of its history as a separate kingdom.
     
  25. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    I wrote about this recently, but there's a lot of Danish words from the Saxon period still in our slang. Geordie slang I know the most about. It's interesting.
     

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