White Supremacy

Discussion in 'Character Development' started by ShadowScribbler, Oct 30, 2011.

  1. Ziggy Stardust

    Ziggy Stardust Active Member

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    I don't read much modern fiction (Prefer to read non-fiction if it's modern) but I read a novel last year called The Reluctant Fundamentalist. It it was about a Palestinian man who lived and worked in New York. He went to Princeton University and then worked at a top flight finance company, and had a rich American girl friend.

    It was quite good, but not amazing.

    I also read "The Slap", if there are any Aussies they probably know that, bitta cultural diversity in it I guess.

    I think there are plenty of books out there that are not from a white middle class perspective.

    I don't think "minorities" are really "under represented" in fiction. They're just, unremarkably, a minority of fiction. Their stuff often isn't as mainstream, but it is there.

    If you're talking about fantasy in particular, most of that is based on medieval Europe, and so most of the characters are based on... medieval Europeans. Nothing to read into that imo, there are no "deeper meanings" behind the choice of white characters in those type of worlds.

    However, if you feel that there are stories that "aren't being told", it's up to you to write them imo.

    I don't like it when people try and sort of... steer the direction of literature.

    Literature is a reflection of our society, not the other way around.
     
  2. shadowwalker

    shadowwalker Contributor Contributor

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    Actually, I said I thought I was done - only commented again because you accused me playing victim - and I think the shoe is on the other foot, in that regard. I used my writing as examples only.

    I've stated my opinions and only intend to respond again if there are disparagements directed toward me as an individual. I never intended to make this personal, but I won't sit back while someone else does.
     
  3. Kio

    Kio New Member

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    You're right, there, but this isn't about fantasies set in areas where all free people are white. It's about literature in modern settings where there are different classes and races, but most of them are mainly told from a white, middle-class perspective.

    Also, this is the reason why I've stopped reading many fantasy books; they start to blend into the same thing. Same German forests, same mythical creatures, same characters. It's tiring and that is why some people are asking for a change.

    They are not trying to steer anything. They are merely asking. Again, we mean no harm. We are not holding people hostage and we are not boycotting anything. Just asking. No steering involved.

    Regardless, the literary world, like rest of the media in the west, is dominated by Caucasian authors. Only rarely will an author of a minority be truly noted for their work. Besides, if you really don't want to write about a character of colour, then that is your choice. The focus is on people who are open to other options, not to those who can't possibly consider these sort of things.
     
  4. Burlbird

    Burlbird Contributor Contributor

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    I don't understand... most people here never-ever took a book in their hands that was not written by a white American? WTF? Are books by foreign authors more expensive in US? Or just harder to get by? I mean, it's not like they publish books with subtitles (which apparently puts off most US movie-goers - they don't like reading while watching a movie) :confused:

    When comes to non-whites in fantasy literature, I thought about Ursula le Guin's Earthsea, and the horrible *beep* SciFi Channel's "adaptation". Not only did they ignored the fact all characters should be "red-skinned", they went so far to put romantic bullcr*p between characters that lived in celibacy!
     
  5. Kio

    Kio New Member

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    It was never mentioned that no one has read a book by a non-Caucasian writer. We all know that there are books that are written by non-Caucasians, but the issue being discussed at the moment is that Eurocentrism and white-washing has taken over Western media (so, not just the US); basically, many movies, TV shows, books, etc. almost always feature a white hero rather than someone else.

    That scenario there where they ignored all the "red-skinned" (do you mean Native?) characters is an example of whitewashing. The celibacy thing is just the SciFi Channel's way of wanting more female viewers, I guess.

    However, in their defense, you can have a relationship and stilll remain celibate. The goal of celibacy is to keep one's virginity, not to avoid relationships.
     
  6. Ziggy Stardust

    Ziggy Stardust Active Member

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    You see, I think you've got this backwards. You should be encouraging more non-Caucasian's to write, and more people to read the work of non-Caucasian authors. Not trying to get middle class white American's to try and write from the perspective of minorities.

    It's like the book I talked about, The Reluctant Fundamentalist, there is no way that could have come from a white middle class American author.

    And obviously there is plenty of literature in other languages from other countries, but not much of it gets translated. But again, you're not going to find yourself reading about white middle class Americans in Chinese literature, etc.
     
  7. Kio

    Kio New Member

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    Yes, I could. I could also encourage white middle class authors to write from different perspectives because it's the healthy thing to do. Minorities are also encouraged to write about different perspectives. Personally, that is what being a author is partly about: writing from other people's perspectives.

    My original point was that it is lazy to write what you know all the time. Not bad or racist, mind you, just lazy. Anyone can write from any perspective outside of their own and all writers are encouraged to do so in order to bring out more variety in the literary world. If you or some other writers feel that that is too hard or too inconceivable, you may ignore it. No one's forcing anyone to be PC and no one is trying to take away your integrity.
     
  8. Ziggy Stardust

    Ziggy Stardust Active Member

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    Well I thought the OP made it pretty clear that it was the readers that were discriminatory about MC's, not the authors.

    So again, I don't think it is an issue with the writers.

    Besides, as myself and others have pointed out. There is plenty of stuff out there that is not from the perspective of white middle class america. You might just have to look harder for it, because it's generally not as popular.
     
  9. Kio

    Kio New Member

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    So, no, it's not just readers that we are talking about. Also, I never said that writers were discriminatory.

    Just to help you out, I shall quote myself.

    See? Never said anything like that.

    As I'd mentioned before myself, it is very true that there are MCs that are not Caucasian; I should know since I invest time in looking for them whenever I get a chance to go to the library or the bookstore. However, in mainstream culture, they are not quite as popular. Yes, readers are also the problem, but writers might also want to spend time writing from a different perspective. That is, if they are open to the option. If not, don't bother.
     
  10. Ziggy Stardust

    Ziggy Stardust Active Member

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    Well I think it's pretty silly to call an author who has put probably hundreds/thousands of hours into producing a piece of work that was good enough to get published "lazy", just because their mc is white.

    It's hard enough for most writer's to write a story with which they are intimately familiar, let alone one that they really have no reference for. Don't chastise white middle class authors for telling white middle class stories.

    It's not "lazy" to "write what you know". You should always write about what you know. If you want to write about something you "don't know", that's where research comes in.

    IMO you need to put in hundreds of hours into research if you're going to try and realistically portray stories/POV's that you're not familiar with in real life. That is if you want them to come across as even remotely believable and accurate. It's not as simple as "try and think from the perspective of an African American and then write it", not when you're talking about MCs. Obviously it's different in fantasy where they create the world, but we've already talked about that.

    Why was The Reluctant Fundamentalist so successful? Because it drew extensively from the authors real life experience, and so it came across naturally and believably. Again I don't think that book could have come from a white American middle class author.
     
  11. Kio

    Kio New Member

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    Will I have to quote myself again? I said all the time. Of course an author can write whatever he or she wants. Again, it is merely encouragement to write from a different perspective, but no one is forcing you guys to write about it all the time.

    When I said "write what you know", I was talking about writing from your own perspective and nobody else's. Of course I know that research is involve in order to write about something that you are not familiar with.

    I... I never said you should try and think from the perspective of an African-American. That is a silly thing to say. That requires fieldwork or at least some research, depending on where you live. If you live in an area where there are minorities and they visibly lead lives that are similar to yours, I don't see the point of spending "hundreds of hours" researching them unless you're thick-headed. If you don't, you do the research, but surely it shouldn't take a hundred hours. I write from the perspectives of at least seven different people with differing backgrounds and I can safely say that it took me less than a hundred hours.

    I've never heard of this book you speak of and, yes, I get the fact that you are trying to tell me that it is authentic and believable, but that is just as possible from someone who is open to the idea of writing from a different race's perspective. I'll say it again: don't do it if you don't want to. No one is peer-pressuring you into writing something you obviously can't think of writing without hundreds of hours of research. If it's going to take you that long then, please, continue what you are doing.
     
  12. Ziggy Stardust

    Ziggy Stardust Active Member

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    Obviously it depends just how different the POV is. But I think you should do a lot of research, especially in interviews, if you're seriously trying to write a believable novel that is good enough to get published as a relevant modern day fiction. My city (Melbourne) is very culturally diverse, and so are the people I interact with on a day to day basis. That doesn't mean I can really get into their head and authentically portray what it feels like to be an Aboriginal Australian, or a Chinese Australian, etc.

    I disagree. The story of an American Palestinian, one that gets inside their head, is always going to be more authentic if it comes from an American Palestinian. Rather than for instance, an upper middle class white American. All they would be able to really do is -guess- at the thoughts that go through their head. And to me that's just not good enough, not when there are writer's who have lived that story.

    I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree.
     
  13. cari_za

    cari_za New Member

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    It's strange to see writers so blocked off from the concept of being in another person's shoes. In more than one book based on writing I've read, published authors proclaim how rewarding the process of writing can be when used as a means to experience life from one of their character's eyes. Many writers use characters extremely opposite from themselves to drive their stories. I doubt Dean Koontz thought of himself as a broken female adult when he wrote "Intensity", and yet he did such a bang up job writing his protagonist. I also doubt that J.K. Rowling thought of herself as a teenage boy. (These are just really random examples that jumped into my mind at this moment, I'm sure there are better ones to choose from.)

    It's not entirely impossible for a person of one race to write as another. Human experience is not unique. And many of us, regardless of race share similar morals and ambitions. It's what allows us to connect with characters in the first place. We can channel their experience. Feelings, emotions, tragedies etc. All of us have similar experiences that can connect us in some way or another. Paulo Coelho wrote in one of his novels "The story of one person is the story of all of humanity." I found that a very interesting thought! It made me think about individual experience more intently.

    I think very few are hearing Kio out.

    I understand that a lot of authors will feel defensive when someone suggests a different way of writing, but not everyone has found their voice yet. OR their style. This topic could very well encourage a new writer to venture in this very direction, try something new that most writers seem to be avoiding. This topic reminds me of one of my favourite quotes; "To achieve the impossible, one must think the absurd; to look where everyone else has looked, but to see what no else has seen".

    And I definitely agree one should not just add a different race character to appear PC or not racist. Characters drive your story, so they're important. They need to be in your story because you need them in the story.

    Again, our emotions are not unique. We all feel anger, sadness, depression, despair, happiness, lust, etc. It's possible to write a story that feels real and complete and as a person of a different race to your own. Especially, as pointed out, if you do research and make friends with people outside of your race group. It's short sighted to presume we can't put ourselves in a totally different person's shoes and have a genuine connection with their story. Just takes some finger flexing, brain straining, lots of tweaking, exchanging feedback and eventually one could get it right.

    I often point out there's a vast difference between intention and translation. An author could write a story as a person of a different race to themselves and the reader then can translate it entirely differently to what is was intended to be. It makes a writer very vulnerable to misinterpretation. So I can't blame anyone for not wanting to venture in this direction, but the point of this topic, from what I've "translated" is to just encourage who are interested to try. Not to force anyone who feels uncomfortable with the notion to do it.
     
  14. blue0impulse

    blue0impulse New Member

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    I actually wrote a whole blog post on this issue. I have trouble reading other popular fiction because of all the white characters I see. And whenever I do see black characters (or characters of any ethnicity) it's usually stereotypes or poorly written characters. I myself being black makes me notice this a lot more often. I also see it in video games and popular media (think "missing white woman syndrome") and it makes me very disappointed. As a writer, I make it a priority to make a more diverse cast of characters. I even deal with people of mixed heritage, but I must admit I haven't done any very mixed characters in a while.
     
  15. Kallithrix

    Kallithrix Banned

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    I think most of the points I would make have been made above:

    People write what they know, and a majority of writers in the English language (UK and US markets) are white (this probably says more about the aspirations and educational opportunities of ethnic minorities, rather than racism or white supremacy in the publishing industry)

    You choose what you read, so if you don't like books about white protagonists, find books about non-white protagonists. These days you will find 'black literature' or 'Asian literature' sections in most large book shops

    Personally, I choose the ethnicity of my characters based on the requirements of the story - I write historical fiction based in Egypt, and I am one of those who believes that the Egyptians were not black (please, lets not get into that one here...) However, they did have a lot of contact with Black African people, i.e. the Nubians, and so there are going to be a fair amount of Black characters in my story. But my main characters are not - one is Hebrew, and the other is An Egyptian racist supremacist. It wouldn't really make sense to make either of them Black, because that would totally change the story.
     
  16. Kio

    Kio New Member

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    I also live in a diverse setting (Montreal, where even language can become conflict) and I believe that it is very possible. Maybe you haven't tried yet, but I have. From what I see, it really isn't hard, especially if the book does not centre around the person's race. Just because someone is part of a minority doesn't mean that it affects their daily lives. For some, it may. For others, such as myself, it does not.

    I doubt an upper-class white American knows many minorities to begin with :p

    Well, if you truly believe that people can't see things from other people's perspectives authentically, then that's you, I guess. I see no point in arguing against it because I have seen it done well to the point where I did not think once that the author was of a different ethnicity.

    THIS.

    This is what I've been trying to tell people for the past two pages and you even raise a great point concerning the "human experience". I've been meaning to say it for days now, but I could never think of the right words to explain it. Your whole post is exactly what I've been trying to say to these people for so long!

    If you are set on your own path, don't write it; if you wish to try something new and are open to the idea, then you should give this a shot. No one is forcing anyone. Thank you for articulating the words better than I could have.

    I can relate with you on this. Video games and comic books seem to be the worst. The fanbase has a lot of issues, to put it lightly. Many of the verbal fans are of the condenscending, chauvinist variety, so when game developers/comic book artists see this, they make sure to accomadate. I've read articles on this and sometimes the developers/artists themselves have an attitude similar to that of a prepubescent boy. Since I began writing, I've made sure to make my cast as diverse as possible. It feels like a duty to me, as a writer, to offer several different points of view.

    Though, I've never heard of a "missing white woman syndrome". I see white women all the time in most forms of Western media. It's the Asian/black/Hispanic/etc. women that I hardly see in popular media :/ Regardless, very disappointing.

    I have made arguments against all these statements in the past two pages, so I'll just give you the gist of it.

    The article was expressing concern about Eurocentrism and therefore encouraging writers to see things from a different point of view. Yes, there is "Asian lit." and "black lit.", but it still remains that the majority of books are from a white, middle-class perspective. If you choose to write about race only when necessary, that is obviously your set path. The article was encouraging people who are new/open to the idea of trying something that is different. If you choose to only write about a race if you see fit, nobody is stopping you.

    Two pages comprised into one paragraph. You're welcome.
     
  17. Ziggy Stardust

    Ziggy Stardust Active Member

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    You might have seen it done well, but I never have, and perhaps we have different opinions about that in any case. I'm not against writer's doing it, I might even give it a go in a short story. I'm just not surprised that there isn't much of it and that not much gets published. Because personally, if I'm going to read a story about for instance, an Aboriginal Australian, I don't want to read a white middle class person's interpretation of it. I want to read something that has come from a lifetime of experience. But then I'm pretty harsh when it comes to modern fiction and I tend to stick with non-fiction for precisely this reason.

    I don't think you can't put yourself in someone else's shoes, certainly you do this when reading. I just think that the details that make a story authentic will never really be there if you stray too far from your own experiences. At least, as I said, not without a lot of research. And again for me, that's not good enough when there are authors out there who have infinitely greater experience because they have lived these stories.

    I'm perfectly happy to read authors who do this for fantasy, historical fiction or sci fi, because there is obviously no alternative, everyone is "guessing" or creating. But not modern fiction, not when there are so many authors to choose from who have greater experience. All it's doing is telling a white middle class interpretation of these stories (no matter how good you think you are, that's what you are doing) and I don't feel that this really does anything for anyone, except fulfill some need of the author. I'd rather read an African American MC written by an African American, and I'm afraid that's just the way it is for me.
     
  18. Kallithrix

    Kallithrix Banned

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    Er, yeah thanks. I wasn't asking. Cheers for the lesson though - I feel enlightened.

    Now I'm off to write about Black people. Hooray.
     
  19. Kio

    Kio New Member

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    Kallithrax: It wasn't a lesson, I was summarising all the points that I used to argue against all the points that you had rehashed. Obviously, you didn't get it because I said if you feel open enough to try it, then it's a good idea to take the advice. If you don't want to, then, like, don't.

    Lol I never said you should write about black people. With that attitude, you probably shouldn't :|

    Ziggy Stardust: Okay. That's too bad. Each to their own.

    I've stated my points and you have stated yours. I don't see the point of continuing this discussion. Not because you're bad or anything, but because the main point of this whole thread, I believe, was Eurocentrism in Western stories. Of course I know why there are more white people in stories; white people make up the majority of the population and they make up a majority of writers. However, my main point was that it's healthy to write from different perspectives, but not racist if you don't (albeit lazy). Discussing whether or not it is possible for someone of a different race to portray another in a realistic light is a different matter. You may write your way and I'll write mine.
     
  20. Kallithrix

    Kallithrix Banned

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    You were being preachy, dissmissive and condescending. I prickled.

    P.S My name is Kallithrix
     
  21. Ziggy Stardust

    Ziggy Stardust Active Member

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    @Kio: I agree it's pointless continuing. You keep stating over and over that it's "lazy" for writers not to write from the POV of someone of a different race. I simply do not agree with that, at all.
     
  22. Kio

    Kio New Member

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    Kallithrix: Preachy? Not really. Condescending and dismissive? Perhaps and yes. Reason being is that I already argued against all those points. Sorry about the name and the prickling, by the way. I could've swore I saw an 'a' in there and prickling is never a good thing.

    Ziggy Stardust: I explained why I thought it was lazy (I think) earlier on in this discussion. To "write what you know" is lazier than taking the time to look at things differently. But if the writer does not feel that they should or simply does not want to for whatever reason, then no one is forcing them to. Just making that clear. Nice chatting with you, though.
     
  23. joanna

    joanna Active Member

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    Essentially, I agree with this.

    I come from a diverse city, diverse family, and I trust myself to write mixed race characters even though I am white. Because I have lived with people of other races and have known them intimately. There are other people who have similar backgrounds and I'd probably trust them to do the same.

    In every bookstore I've ever been in, there have been entire sections dedicated to authors of ethnicities other than white, if these were not simply included scattered around the store. If I want to read a non Eurocentric story I don't have any trouble finding it.

    Many of the stories I've read by and about white people, I've enjoyed, and found no reason to ask them to include minorities in their stories. Because it's not necessary to their stories, and because I don't trust that they can. If they want to try, fine. I don't guarantee I'll like the results. I'd just assume read a story by someone who has the worldly experience needed to do it naturally.
     
  24. Kallithrix

    Kallithrix Banned

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    Well, I'm writing a black character in my story, and in an effort to stay away from racial stereotypes I have made her character quite un-ethnic. She's basically a giggly dumb blonde with a black Afro :D
     
  25. Gallowglass

    Gallowglass Contributor Contributor

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    I don't like the idea of forcing yourself to not write anything 'stereotypical,' not only because that in itself will result in stereotyping because it's a pointless exercise: culture does influence the way we behave, and people from different cultures do behave in different ways, with different preoccupations and outlooks on the world. Do all of them behave in the same way? No. But distinctions do exist to an extent, and the author who can correctly portray them with an objective eye has done a far greater job than one who just ignores it.

    On the whole, I prefer 'ethnic' characters to be ethnic characters. Not white people with brown skin.
     

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