Why is everyone so quick to make fantasy either urban steampunk or medieval? There's so much more.

Discussion in 'Fantasy' started by FireWater, Jul 8, 2017.

  1. RWK

    RWK Senior Member

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    If you don't like it, why read it? Millions of new books each year, more existing books than you can read in a lifetime.
     
  2. 123456789

    123456789 Contributing Member Contributor

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    Sure but I don't think this relates to my initial post.
     
  3. Iain Sparrow

    Iain Sparrow Contributing Member

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    But it's why Hollywood, big book publishers, and entertainment in general is so timid, so safe. Nobody's interested in trying something new, original, dangerous.
    How many Batman movies are we up to?.. five, six? Batman, a silly fruitcake of a crimefighter created before WWII, and they just can't let him go. And please, no more Star Wars, I'm done with Star Trek, Vikings... stop with the vikings already, flouncing pirates (I cannot bear to see Mr.Depp, the ridiculous real life pussy that he is in another pirate movie!), spell slinging teenage wizards, sparkly vampires, talking raccoons with laser pistols, white guys thrashing about with swords... Game of Thrones, written by a slob who can't even see his cock for his belly!

    It's all melodrama gone wrong!;)
     
  4. S A Lee

    S A Lee Active Member

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    You just described AAA anything right there, books, movies, even video games.

    And to this, I provide you with this short video:



    Rather than relent this, smaller authors should praise being able to identify niches and exploit them. For better or worse E.L. James did that with 50 Shades.
     
  5. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributing Member Contributor

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    Ten. If you count Adam West Batman movies and stuff. It's ten. To my knowledge anyhow.

    Though yikes. I mean. I don't like twilight or star wars or game of thrones. But that doesn't mean I don't want them to exist or are angry that they do exist. I just decide not to engage beyond what it takes to discover I don't like them.

    The fans are more than welcome to like them. In a free market like this that is exactly how it should be.

    Unless you failed to explain your self properly it sounds like you are advocating creativity by saying other versions of creativity don't deserve to exist? A bit harsh.
     
  6. Iain Sparrow

    Iain Sparrow Contributing Member

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    Perhaps I'm jaded, but I think folks mostly want a quick fix for their entertainment. I can't even recall the last movie I watched, it's been several months. There's nothing that really interests me anymore, leastwise coming from American moviemakers. And I used to work in the video game industry... a more mindless, unsophisticated, morally challenged bunch you'd be hard-pressed to find.

    I saw the other day a commercial for another King Kong movie. Really, we need that?
     
  7. Iain Sparrow

    Iain Sparrow Contributing Member

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    The market isn't the problem. The problem is that Hollywood, video game companies, most writers, are pandering whores. In most cases the folks they're pandering to don't deserve any better. We like our entertainment cheap and easy, and that's what we get in spades.
     
  8. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributing Member Contributor

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    I don't actually see how this is different.

    I mean. Isn't it the market that is being the "pandering whores"

    But if you restrict them from being that. Then aren't you restricting freedom?

    Also insulting the entire like human race is not nice way to support creativity.

    I know I know. You didn't say entire human race but you made it sound like, the average human is buying crap, thus supporting people to sell crap and you dont like this.

    But your basing this opinion on the idea that you are right and they are wrong. Which.... yeah, you have your work ahead of you.

    Almost impossible in the sense of freedom because again. Even if I agree with you in not liking such material. I am fine with it existing. I don't like transformers for example. Never have. Like not even the first one that everyone loved.

    But I never see the poster for the new one(what ten at this point? and it took batman half a century to get that, not ten years lol.) and think. Oh geez, I that shouldn't exist.

    I think, of the millions movies I am probably never gonna see. That makes 1,000,001. And that is fine.
     
  9. jannert

    jannert Contributing Member Supporter Contributor

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    I think GRR Martin did do a good job with the 'fantasy,' (although I'm not a fan of the neverendum.) I also am very VERY fond of Joe Abercrombie. So I'm not disparaging anybody who does a good job with medieval fantasy. But the golden age of wonder? If it's over ...why is it over? Possibilites are always endless for innovation and new creations. I just fear that many readers and writers now look upon medieval fantasy—with elves, dwarves, orcs, wizards and warriors—as something to be copied and recycled. It is a lucrative genre, for sure. But ...meh....
     
  10. S A Lee

    S A Lee Active Member

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    If you ask me, a quick fix is all anyone wants for just about anything these days. It comes with how fast our pace of life has become. People will go for the familiar.

    I mentioned in the best advice thread that I attended a workshop by a published author named Adrienne Dines. Her third book was the manuscript that got her attention from her publisher, but they told her to write something more conventional to establish herself to her target audience before they published it. She did, and her books are a moderate success.
     
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  11. Cave Troll

    Cave Troll Shh. The safeword is Swiss Fish Salad. :D Contributor

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    Pandering is kinda the problem,when a lot do it.
    Simple and easy writing, plots, and characters.

    Not saying that there isn't good stuff to read out
    there. Just takes time to find it.

    Ultra bonus question to who cares to answer.

    Do you pander-write, or do you try to write
    the stories that have more depth to them?
     
  12. Dr.Meow

    Dr.Meow Active Member

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    Yeah, it's a phenomenon that happened about the same time that music went down hill too. Admittedly I like some of the stuff that's produced because every once in awhile I'll get my fancy tickled, but the diversity and creativity is dead and gone. There are still underground things that profess to not being "mainstream", but the issue with those is they go too far off the path and forsake certain "rules" of those trades, and/or their budget is extremely limited and talent is pretty shitty.

    I don't agree with blaming the public completely, the consumers are not all to blame. We've been brainwashed and conditioned to accept that media and to consider it good, not regurgitated garbage. No, the publishers of this material do not want to step outside the bounds because it gets harder, and they'd rather not spend resources investigating new ideas, they feel like they have enough to do just pushing this stuff out the door (when really they're just lazy and cheap). Also, since they've spent so much time and effort into making us think this crap is good, they really don't want to rock the boat and try something new...it might flop for all they know, and it probably would. There's no room in the production budgets for any major "mistakes" like that...

    I kinda' agree with you, except for the fact that this disease that has been created which destroys creativity is keeping anything unique from being produced. The only markets that I know that have some creative freedom left while still being well-made is anime and manga. I think Iain is blaming the wrong people though, it's not the consumer that has caused this. The problem has to be traced back through the money, which ends up in the hands of the "mainstream" producers who control the market.

    Out of all the current media that's produced (books, movies, music, games), only about five to ten percent is worth keeping maybe. The rest is trash that we no longer need, and it has corrupted the market to a point where there is no creativity left...and that is where it has become a problem. I would rather snuff out the existence of it and allow for more freedom and creativity, than allow it to continue for the sake of a small handful of stuff I like. The production companies need to be controlled by the viewers, not the other way around. Similar to politics. The people should be in control of the government, not being force fed lies to keep them compliant and subservient. ;)
     
  13. Elven Candy

    Elven Candy Pay no attention to the foot in my mouth Supporter Contributor

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    Wow, it sounds like you have an issue with everything! I love Batman, and I like Start Trek and I don't know anything about Mr. Depp's real life, but I don't care and I love his character in the movies because he's funny. I don't need everything to be serious--sometimes I just want to relax and laugh. Sure, just about every pirate in books and TV these days is totally unrealistic--certainly any who are portrayed as good guys--but I can overlook that for something fun to watch/read. I've never cared for Power Rangers or Star Wars or SpongeBob and I think it's silly that they're still ongoing, but that doesn't mean their writers or audience are a bunch of brainless monkeys. It just means we have different tastes and desires. I don't know any talking raccoons with laser pistols except Rocket from Guardians of the Galaxy, so I don't understand how that can be a trope you're tired of.

    "White guys thrashing about with swords": I'm not sure if you're just tired of sword fights or if you'd enjoy watching the same thing with another skin color, but I'm assuming you mean sword fights. I actually find this kind of funny because I get annoyed watching gun fights--in reality, it wouldn't be a fight, but rather a few bullets would fly and then someone would be dead. No fighting, just death, and the total unrealism of TV gun fights makes me both laugh and cry inside. What works for one audience doesn't work for another, and that's okay.

    You're always wanting new material that's totally unrelated to material you've already seen/read; others want material that's familiar to them. Does that make us stupid and unimaginative? Nope, it just makes us different. I like both, but when I've had a lot of stress, I want something "safe," something I know I can enjoy and relax on. Real life is stressful; I don't need my entertainment to be that as well. It doesn't need to be serious, just fun. Isn't that the whole point of entertainment? To help us relax cope with the stresses of life?

    Just a little fun FYI: There are way more Batman movies than that if you count the animated ones. Batman's always been my favorite DC hero, and he likely always will be. I don't know why you call him a fruitcake--he's not much different from other superheroes and as for letting him go, Superman's older and has had at least as much attention. Maybe if you can figure out exactly what you don't like about him, you can find hero movies more tailored to you. I'm assuming you like hero movies because a few of your examples have them.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2017
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  14. Elven Candy

    Elven Candy Pay no attention to the foot in my mouth Supporter Contributor

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    Does it count if I pander to myself and have only completed one story?

    It's a shame that the more unique ideas get thrown out by the big guys. Have you seen American cartoons lately? There's like, 1% of them that's even worth watching anymore. The rest are all about silly characters with poor artwork and no plotline. The few good ones never get put on DVD, while all the cruddy ones get several editions. And people wonder why Anime is becoming so popular :rolleyes:. If the big guys would just pay attention to the people they're making this stuff for, they'd find themselves with a much broader audience.

    The first few seasons of My Little Pony, Friendship is Magic was so unique and hilarious it actually caught the attention of teen boys and grown men. These guys became their biggest audience, and they created a whole culture around it and call themselves bronies (a combination of bro and pony). And no, they weren't/aren't weirdoes with no life. Once the company started stifling the creativity of the original author, she quit, and the show went downhill. This is a terrific example of the Big Guys being fools and not listening to those they should be listening to.
     
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  15. Dr.Meow

    Dr.Meow Active Member

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    Exactly, and I believe that is Iain's point. I'm not so sure about the Bronies thing though. XD I will never understand bronies, but I suppose that's okay, to each their own. :)
     
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  16. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributing Member Contributor

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    I think your attitude is a bit cynical but that is okay. To each his own. My issue is more with well.

    The hypcrasy of wanting to "snuff" out a particular thing to allow more creativity and freedom of expression in a creative context.

    I mean no ill will I assume you get the irony?
     
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  17. Dr.Meow

    Dr.Meow Active Member

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    Not technically cynical, since I believe that people make better decisions when given the freedom to choose, rather than an industry deciding for them and forcing them to like it. Brainwashed. People aren't the problem, it's those who are motivated merely by their wallets, which are the minority who are in charge of production. Everyone loved the music back in the sixties and seventies, but it wasn't "mainstreamed", or rather "streamlined", enough to mass produce and increase profit. So what do record producers do? Since it's not easy to cookie cutter things like "The Who", "Led Zepplin", "Pink Floyd", "Deep Purple", etc, they simply erased the creativity and programmed the next generations to like stuff that's simpler, bland and easy to reproduce. There's formulas to music, but what these companies have done is simplified the formulas to a point where it's just easy to create a brand image and slap some crap on an album that people will buy because they liked that one song they heard from it on the radio.

    Yes, it's hypocritical, I know... I suppose a better way to go about it would be to discourage simplistic beats and rhythms, and reward ingenuity more. People can still make, and consume, crap all day long, but the stuff that's really unique and interesting is what becomes popular and "mainstream". The irony to being against "mainstream", and trying to be unique, is that technically that becomes mainstream itself. There is no such thing as going "against the grain" and being "edgy and unique", we all want that, we all want something new...we're just all waiting for it to be finally produced again like it used to be.
     
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  18. BayView

    BayView Contributing Member Contributor

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    You guys don't think maybe you're being a little melodramatic? Has there ever been a time period that didn't produce lots of light, fun entertainment as well as some heavier, deeper fare?

    I mean, forty years ago? The seventies were some sort of golden age? With the disco, and the polyester, and the feathered hair and the lava lamps? There were thoughtful, high quality things being produced then, of course, but there was also lots of disposable stuff, just like today.

    The world isn't falling apart; it's just fine. Relax and enjoy!
     
  19. Wreybies

    Wreybies The Ops Pops Operations Manager Staff Contest Administrator Supporter Contributor

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    Yes. This. This in spades.

    Also, just using this is a segue to let it be known that I have my eye on this thread. It's starting to become a little bit of a backseat of the family station wagon and the kids are getting on each other's nerves kind of thread.

    Daddy has a long arm, so everyone settle down, please.
     
  20. Elven Candy

    Elven Candy Pay no attention to the foot in my mouth Supporter Contributor

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    Ohhh, that makes sense. Guess I'm a little slow on the brain draw ;).

    And yeah, bronies are funny. I know some and they're good little gents. They actually got me to like the show :whistle:. None of us cared for the latest season, though, so I'll probably stop watching it.

    But, but, I'm so GOOD at being melodramatic!

    Okay I'll stop now.
     
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  21. RWK

    RWK Senior Member

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    Just because you don't like it doesn't impact the fact that a lot of people do. So if you want a lot of people to read your work...

    Genres exist because people like what they like. For the most part they want a setting they can grasp quickly so they can get into the plot smoothly.

    There's another reason as well" in a sea of books with more flooding in daily, it is far easier to find what you want by hunting genres.

    Breaking genre is akin to introducing Emu burgers. Remember them? healthier than beef, easier to prepare, and the animals produced boot hide and feathers as well.

    It floundered. It had everything going for it except a distribution system and branding.

    Write what you want, by all means. We live in the glory age of viable self-publishing. But remember that if you want your book to be read, you will have to market it.
     
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  22. RWK

    RWK Senior Member

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    When did fiction become 'dangerous'?

    When did writing require the ability to visually inspect one's genitals?

    Much melodrama in this.

    The simple truth is that Hollywood makes them and writers write them because people want them. GRR Martin and Game of Thrones are household names. Star Trek, Star Wars likewise.

    The market end of writing is the same for any market: that which sells is good, that which does not sell is bad.

    Write what you will, but one the editting is done, you still have to market the book, and that is when the challenge begins.
     
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  23. I.A. By the Barn

    I.A. By the Barn A very lost time traveller Contributor

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    Rightio then, I'll stop my projects, this person says no more pirates :p

    Back to the original point of this thread, I think a fantasy set around vikings would be very interesting, whether it goes full norse myth or just has magic in that type setting because it would have a different flavour to medieval. I might have to write that some day....
     
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  24. jannert

    jannert Contributing Member Supporter Contributor

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    I hope you're not saying that if we want to get published we must pick a genre and copy that genre's tropes and requirements. Just churn it out and rake it in? That's what you think writing and reading is all about? If so, that's a real shame.

    Of course there is a market for popular genre books, and there's nothing wrong with them. But that's not the same thing as saying there is ONLY a market for popular genre books—which is what I fear you mean. I hope I picked you up wrongly on that. I'd hate to think that since the end of the 'golden age' that we're doomed to just re-read the same basic stories over and over and over again. Similar cover art, different author name, same old predictible story?
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2017
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  25. BayView

    BayView Contributing Member Contributor

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    I think you're setting up a bit of a strawman, there. The post mentioned "if you want a lot of people to read your work" not "if we want to get published". And there was certainly no mention of copying or a requirement to "churn it out".

    Genre is a really useful marketing tool. If your work doesn't fit into a genre, it's a tool you can't use. That seems pretty straightforward.

    ETA: And do you really have any trouble finding creative, adventurous, original fiction written recently? I certainly don't. So I'm not sure what all this 'end of the golden age' business is about...
     

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