1. waitingforzion

    waitingforzion Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2009
    Messages:
    548
    Likes Received:
    60

    I cannot refrain from revising while writing, nor can I plan the content beforehand.

    Discussion in 'Revision and Editing' started by waitingforzion, Sep 8, 2017.

    One problem I struggle with when writing, though I seldom attempt to write anything, is my inability to shape the contents of my work without revising or attending to phrasing as I write the first draft of it. For often I think this: if the thoughts can be clothed in the rhythm I want, they must be of such a nature that the rhythm will result or at least be more likely to occur with the right choice of words. And so, despite the unlikely-hood that any such nature is intrinsic to the thoughts I wish to write, or any thought at all, I feel constrained to perfect the rhythm while I write the first draft. This causes me, when attempting more complex sentence structures, to come short of getting anything expressed in full before I have almost half-perfected the rhythm of a single clause. Furthermore, due to this habit, I cannot seem to invent the material for my work, because that would require me to neglect the phrasing and order of my thoughts for the time being. This problem seems to prevail as an issue mostly when my mind is focused on rhythm. for when I write in a plain style, the wording does not come to me with difficulty, for such a style does not seem to require much attention to rhythm, but has a rhythm that comes most naturally from the words that express what the writer wishes to say. Nevertheless, though it is good for one to write this way, I cannot help but be intrigued by certain kinds of rhythm that I want to use in my writing. For this reason I must find a solution to my problem, which will enable me to form the material for my work, not thinking it to be impossible to revise my words for rhythm.

    Please help.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2017
  2. John Calligan

    John Calligan Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2015
    Messages:
    1,479
    Likes Received:
    1,683
    My outlines for a whole novel are usually less than 200 words. I just try to get an idea with enough conflict and some goal posts to reach. Then I write towards those goals, but if I get there and the goal post has shifted, I adjust the rest of the outline.

    I read a blog post from some decently known, published writer, that said she revised while she wrote and couldn't stop herself. Even though people say not to, there are people who can and do.

    My outlines usually look like:

    Logline: What if...

    Act 1

    Main Goal

    Act 2

    Main Goal

    Act 3

    Main Goal

    Then, I guess at how many chapters each act is going to have and map out act 1 with the different conflicts and events I have to hit, usually 16-24 different items.

    Then I start writing.
     
  3. EdFromNY

    EdFromNY Hope to improve with age Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2010
    Messages:
    5,101
    Likes Received:
    3,203
    Location:
    Queens, NY
    If your OP is a sample of your writing style - of the "rhythm" with which you write, I would advise you to start there. I suspect you are working too hard on crafting wordage that strikes you as appropriately impressive. You said it yourself - "when I write in a plain style, the wording does not come to me with difficulty" (of course, it would be even simpler - both to write and to read - to say "the wording comes easily".

    If you are writing for your own pleasure, then it doesn't matter. Write what you will to please yourself. But if you are writing to be published and read, I would suggest on a simpler and less contrived "rhythm".
     
  4. Bill Chester

    Bill Chester Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2016
    Messages:
    153
    Likes Received:
    84
    Location:
    Nova Scotia, Canada
    I couldn't resist formatting this as a poem:

    One problem I struggle with when writing,
    Though I seldom attempt to write anything,
    Is my inability to shape the contents of my work without revising or attending to phrasing as I write the first draft of it.
    For often I think this: if the thoughts can be clothed in the rhythm I want,
    They must be of such a nature that the rhythm will result or at least be more likely to occur with the right choice of words.
    And so, despite the unlikely-hood that any such nature is intrinsic to the thoughts I wish to write,
    Or any thought at all,
    I feel constrained to perfect the rhythm while I write the first draft.
    This causes me, when attempting more complex sentence structures,
    To come short of getting anything expressed in full before I have almost half-perfected the rhythm of a single clause.
    Furthermore,
    Due to this habit,
    I cannot seem to invent the material for my work,
    Because that would require me to neglect the phrasing and order of my thoughts for the time being.
    This problem seems to prevail as an issue mostly when my mind is focused on rhythm.
    For when I write in a plain style,
    The wording does not come to me with difficulty,
    For such a style does not seem to require much attention to rhythm, but has a rhythm that comes most naturally from the words that express what the writer wishes to say.
    Nevertheless,
    Though it is good for one to write this way,
    I cannot help but be intrigued by certain kinds of rhythm that I want to use in my writing.
    For this reason I must find a solution to my problem,
    Which will enable me to form the material for my work, not thinking it to be impossible to revise my words for rhythm.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2017
    jannert, Laurin Kelly and Taina like this.
  5. Taina

    Taina Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2017
    Messages:
    20
    Likes Received:
    13
    What if you allowed rhythm to emerge from your writing, instead of struggling to impose it? Maybe that could be more organic.
     
    jannert and Cave Troll like this.
  6. Laurin Kelly

    Laurin Kelly Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2016
    Messages:
    2,521
    Likes Received:
    4,054
    Wherein Ed says exactly what I was thinking last night when I read this, but had consumed too much wine to word it diplomatically. ;)
     
  7. Cave Troll

    Cave Troll It's Coffee O'clock everywhere. Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2015
    Messages:
    17,922
    Likes Received:
    27,173
    Location:
    Where cushions are comfy, and straps hold firm.
    First drafts are supposed to be sloppy. Editing things as you go
    is alright, but wait until you have the story completed before you
    start taking the scalpel out to trim the fat and do rewrites.
    It makes it simpler and you don't feel the need to rework things
    more than once or twice, as you are cleaning it up.

    As for those who are speaking about your rhythm, it takes time
    to get that down based upon the tone of a given theme. To be
    fair nobody nails that down to an impeccable level, but to one
    that works well enough. Getting critiques on your work will help
    you find out what others think about it, and help you get a better
    handle on it (along with other things).

    Remember we are all imperfect, and cannot achieve the impossibility
    of perfection. If this were not the case, then things would be boring.

    Good luck. :superagree:
     
    jannert and OurJud like this.
  8. OurJud

    OurJud Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    May 21, 2009
    Messages:
    9,502
    Likes Received:
    9,758
    Location:
    England
    @waitingforzion - the title of your thread relates to me so accurately it's spooky.

    Every ounce of my energy, desire and enthusiasm goes into sentence structure and rhythm, with plot and forwarding of the story very much a second thought.

    I keep telling myself that if I can only force myself to work through to the end of a sloppy first-draft, something inside me will click and I will suddenly understand what's required to finish a book. Sadly, I very much doubt I will ever reach that point.

    And for that reason I cannot offer any advice.
     
  9. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2016
    Messages:
    6,086
    Likes Received:
    7,421
    Maybe if you just wrote more, some of the things you think you're struggling with would work themselves out. You clearly state that you seldom write. That's probably the biggest problem a writer could have.
     
    Cave Troll, OurJud, Mckk and 2 others like this.
  10. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2013
    Messages:
    17,674
    Likes Received:
    19,889
    Location:
    Scotland
    Try writing a story, rather than 'writing.' In other words, concentrate on substance rather than form. It's what most people read for, anyway. There isn't any point in creating wordy perfection if there isn't anything actually being said. Figure out what you want to say, say it ...and work on the form later.

    If you want things to change, you have to change them. Your method isn't working for you, according to your post, so change your approach.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2017
  11. Eucryphia

    Eucryphia Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2017
    Messages:
    22
    Likes Received:
    11
    Location:
    Southern England
    Forgive me if I'm off beam here, but in reading your OP I received an impression of someone who found a certain joy in writing when they do so in what they term "a plain style", but also someone who encounters difficulties when they attempt to impose, for whatever reason, an external constraint — which they currently define as "rhythm".

    It seems to me that there are various examples of authors whose own, sometimes idiosyncratic, versions of "plain style" don't or didn't readily fit into the constructs which are/were presented as the norms. If you find that you can express yourself well and fluently in your own style, perhaps you might consider sticking with it for a while and seeing what the result might be?

    Hence I seem to find myself in broad agreement with the authors of both the previous posts in this thread. My suggestion would be: find your own voice first; tell the story which is in your mind; and then review what you have. At that point you should be able to see whether your own voice works, and to what extent you need to make changes.
     
    jannert likes this.
  12. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    15,262
    Likes Received:
    13,084
    Why not try writing some fiction in a plain style? Have you tried even, let's say, three hundred words, in a plain style? Why not try it?

    You would, I assure you, survive the experience. No god of rhythm would come to punish you. Why not try it?
     
    Laurin Kelly, Cave Troll and jannert like this.
  13. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    10,462
    Likes Received:
    11,689
    Guys, check his posting history before you engage too deeply. This is an ongoing issue, and I really don't think he's interested in changing his style. Or his process. Or much of anything else.
     
    jannert likes this.
  14. Eucryphia

    Eucryphia Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2017
    Messages:
    22
    Likes Received:
    11
    Location:
    Southern England
    Hmm. Thank you, BayView, although in the light of your contribution I now find myself somewhat puzzled....

    If you are suggesting that prior to responding to any thread on this forum it is necessary for contributors to first check out the OP's entire "posting history", then it would certainly make the business of attempting to post any responses a somewhat cumbersome one. As a veteran of many Internet fora on the Internet (and indeed its predecessor, the 'Bulletin Boards') I have previously always, and safely, worked on the basis that each thread is self-contained, with the OP being responsible for making their background issues, requests, and intentions for that thread clear: if that is not the case in this place then I fear I must have somehow missed the notifications about it.

    On the other hand, if I have inadvertently strayed into a minefield — I am aware that such things can exist, even in the best-regulated environments — then mea culpa cubed.

    Do please advise....
     
  15. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    10,462
    Likes Received:
    11,689
    No minefield, and of course you're free to keep posting if you want to. I just didn't want people to spend a lot of energy on something that I anticipate will be a frustrating waste of time.
     
    Eucryphia likes this.
  16. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    15,262
    Likes Received:
    13,084
    Nobody will mind if you spend tens of hours trying to analyze and help with this problem, digging yourself deeper and deeper and deeper into quicksand. It's just that the people who have successfully pulled themselves out of that specific patch of quicksand, or who have walked by and looked, with helpless concern, at the people struggling to escape, feel an ethical obligation to put up warning signs. You're responding to a warning sign.

    I, personally, keep on wading in. But that's just me.
     
    Eucryphia and BayView like this.
  17. waitingforzion

    waitingforzion Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2009
    Messages:
    548
    Likes Received:
    60
    It's not that I don't want to change my approach. I just don't want to change my goal. The problem for me is this: I cannot easily writing without revising, fearing that if I do so, I will not be able to reach my goal. Another thing I struggle with is planning my work before writing it. I cannot seem to create an outline, though I have probably not tried it with as much effort as I should have.
     
  18. Laurin Kelly

    Laurin Kelly Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2016
    Messages:
    2,521
    Likes Received:
    4,054
    I'm a fellow veteran of message boards, active since the early 1990's. Most of the ones I've participated in have absolutely not asked members to operate under the assumption that a poster's prior posting history couldn't or shouldn't be used to draw conclusions about whether the poster was worth engaging with or responding to. There's very little social interaction, even online, that happens in a vacuum.
     
    BayView likes this.
  19. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    May 1, 2008
    Messages:
    23,826
    Likes Received:
    20,815
    Location:
    El Tembloroso Caribe
    You know the names of the shackles at your wrists and ankles.

    A Quest for Form is Defeating Content

    You admit that your constant concern over the style in the few sentences you manage to get down keeps you from moving forward or even knowing the direction in which you wish to take your story. ​

    Apathy Drowns Progress

    You have stated twice in this thread alone that you don't actually do much writing. ​

    You have named your foes. You know them. We have engaged this same question in many different guises across the years. I have occasionally participated. I have refrained from doing so lately because history is loud. You search for something akin to a spell, a charm, a glamour. An idea that if you can get the words to flow in this particular way, in this invocation, then the magic will auto-replicate and continue to give birth to itself. The one thing every one of us here knows is that there is no such spell, no charm, no casting that will make that happen. It's a labor, a work that wants constant refinement. Even after publication, many authors issue revised editions because publication is just a moment, an event, not the death of creation.
     
    Trish, jannert and ChickenFreak like this.
  20. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    15,262
    Likes Received:
    13,084
    Out of fear that you won't reach your goal, you are refusing to take even one step toward your goal.

    If my goal were to become a master pastry chef, learning to make chocolate chip cookies would not prevent that goal, even though chocolate chip cookies are far simpler than the works of a master pastry chef. Making them would teach me a tiny subset of the skills needed for the eventual goal.

    Take a step. Stop refusing to move.
     
    Laurin Kelly and Wreybies like this.
  21. AustinFrom1995

    AustinFrom1995 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2017
    Messages:
    100
    Likes Received:
    47
    Nice method!
     
    John Calligan likes this.
  22. EdFromNY

    EdFromNY Hope to improve with age Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2010
    Messages:
    5,101
    Likes Received:
    3,203
    Location:
    Queens, NY
    I'm reminded of a story my stepfather used to tell back in the 1970s, when the draft was still in effect in the US. It seems this fella walked into his draft board for his physical. At every desk or table he saw, he'd pick up whatever scrap of paper was lying there and say, "That's not it. That's not it." On and on he went through the facility. "That's not it." Finally, one doctor turns to another and says, "This guy's nuts! Get him out of here." A short while later, they gave him a form that showed he had been reclassified as 4F.

    "That's it!" he said.
     
    Trish, John Calligan, jannert and 2 others like this.
  23. peachalulu

    peachalulu Member Reviewer Contributor

    Joined:
    May 20, 2012
    Messages:
    4,620
    Likes Received:
    3,807
    Location:
    occasionally Oz , mainly Canada
    If a person spent as much time handwringing over plots, rhythm, editing, character arcs, character names etc. and just wrote one page a day ... at the end of the year he'd have a 365 page novel. Look writing isn't rocket science. There's no code to crack. Feel it, write it, edit it. Nothing comes out perfect.
     
    xanadu, deadrats, Cave Troll and 2 others like this.
  24. Edward M. Grant

    Edward M. Grant Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2012
    Messages:
    711
    Likes Received:
    348
    Location:
    Canada
    That's not a problem unless you make it one. There's nothing wrong with revising as you go, unless you get stuck in a vicious circle of rewrites where you never get the book finished. I'm constantly revising as I go: editing things, adding in Peckinpah's Bear Traps that I need in chapter ten and didn't realize I should have inserted in chapter one, and moving scenes and chapters around.

    Each day, I typically go back through whatever I wrote the previous day, expand it and clean it up. Then, about 25% of the way through the book I'll go back to the start and revise the whole thing, because I've inserted various things as I went along and moved scenes around, so there'll be details that need tidying up. At about 50%, 75% and 95%, I do it again.

    That way, when I write 'The End' the book just needs feedback and a cleanup before it's done. I used to hate writing a first draft and then trying to make some sense of it, whereas revising as I go doesn't feel like a chore. And the process I ended up with seems to be similar to what a number of much more successful writers say they do.

    Others work better with the 'write a draft and then figure out the book'. approach. I believe Stephen King says he works that way, for example.
     
    Shenanigator likes this.
  25. Shenanigator

    Shenanigator Has the Vocabulary of a Well-Educated Sailor. Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2017
    Messages:
    4,886
    Likes Received:
    8,763
    This!

    This is exactly the way I work as well. I'm currently "stuck" as to where the plot should go next (I don't outline; whenever I do my writing comes out very stilted and mechanical, with no flow), so I'm taking it as an opportunity to clean up what I have so far. It's working; the wheels have begun to turn once again.

    I think, dear OP, that you just have to get in there and JFDI (Just Freakin' Do It). Perfection does not exist. If you find yourself obsessing over revising a paragraph or section and not moving forward, literally set a timer and say "moving on"! You can always fix it on the next round of edits.

    (Edited, ironically enough, to fix a typo)
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice