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  1. jim onion

    jim onion New Member

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    Works Considered Already Published

    Discussion in 'Traditional Publishing' started by jim onion, Jan 4, 2018.

    Sorry to make two threads in such a short span of time.

    I've been thinking about submitting some poetry and short stories to publications, but literally all of them have been published on one public writing forum, if not two.

    It is my understanding that there *are* publications out there that accept already-published works. I know that they do not pay well (we're talking pennies), if at all, and they tend to have small audiences... but money isn't an issue to me. I would be ecstatic to just have some of my work accepted and then shared with readers.

    Has anybody gone this route, or might anybody warn me against it? Would I be better off in the long-run just self-publishing a collection of my poems and short-stories in the future (say, as an ebook on Amazon or something), since that would be more lucrative and might garner more attention?

    Also, when submitting to publications there's always some terms and conditions. Is it worth hiring a lawyer who is familiar with copyright so that you don't get screwed? Word salads full of law-jargon make my head hurt and leave me quite confused.
     
  2. jim onion

    jim onion New Member

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    Wait, seriously? I've been under the impression this whole time that publications will consider a work posted on a forum in its entirety, even if only for critique, as published. And in a lot of the terms/conditions that I read for magazines, e-zines and the like, I always read something along the lines of "we do not accept works that have been published by other publications, self-published, posted online..."

    This brings up another question: if I were to get a short-story published by a relatively well-known magazine, I'd still be allowed to self-publish it later on in a collection?

    I know next to nothing about the intricacies of copyright and law, and I'm just afraid of finding myself in a predicament. I know to a certain extent that's sort of a silly worry since it's not like I'm awash with contracts in my mailbox and people want to pay me large sums of money (I wish lol), but since I'm seriously considering this as a career, I want to start it right and be protected, you know? I'm not a professional lawyer. But maybe it's not as complicated as I'm making it out to be.

    I just have this fear of getting screwed by some "sheister" as my dad calls them, or because I failed to read the fine print and I failed to decipher some ambiguous wording. (I understand that 99% of publications out there, especially the well-respected and well-established ones, are not out to get authors.)

    I suppose I can flip the question on its head in a sense. Have you, or anybody you know, ran into legal issues with their creative works?
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2018
  3. X Equestris

    X Equestris Contributor Contributor

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    From what I understand, it will depend on the publication and whether the forum can be accessed by just anyone. Even the most restrictive publications--such as Clarkesworld--won't have a problem if you post it on a password protected forum like Baen's Bar. For what it's worth, our own Workshop can be viewed in its entirety by guests (I tested it). You're probably fine if the version you post isn't the final one. Honestly, I doubt these publications will go looking most of the time anyway. And many won't care as long as it was for critique purposes.

    So long as you didn't sell all rights to the story, or agree to perpetual exclusivity, a collection should be fine. Magazines usually buy first rights, a period of exclusivity, the non-exclusive right to keep it in publication or on their site after the period is over, and occasionally the right to compile it in an anthology of other works they've purchased (they'll often pay you again for this).
     
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  4. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    CAN be viewed in its entirety? If I connect to writingforums without logging in, I can't see it. I don't think I'm supposed to see it. Can you clarify?

    (In case you're reacting to the fact that you can see the thread titles, try to click on a thread in the Workshop and actually view the posts. I can't see one without logging in.)
     
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  5. X Equestris

    X Equestris Contributor Contributor

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    Must've been a glitch when I tried it.

    In this case it's probably fine.
     
  6. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    The contracts I've had to sign made me agree that the stories in question had never appeared in print or online in any form. I'm glad I didn't have to ask for clarification since I have never posted a story in workshop. And I think if someone is paying you a lot of money to be the first to run your story, they really want to be the first.
     
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  7. jim onion

    jim onion New Member

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    See, this is what I mean. That "online in any form" bit.
     
  8. X Equestris

    X Equestris Contributor Contributor

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    It really all comes down to the editor of the publication's judgement. Some will exclude critique forums from the "online in any form", some won't. I've seen people sell first rights to stories that won contests on various forums. If you're unsure about a specific case, you can always ask the market before submitting.
     
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  9. jim onion

    jim onion New Member

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    You're right, there's only one way to find out and that's to submit it and see what happens.

    But doesn't this give credence to what I said earlier, about the ambiguity of terms and conditions, and the legalities?

    "Critique forums are okay" versus "not okay" seems to be a pretty large margin of error.
     
  10. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    You could always email the publication before you submit and ask them their policy. I think posting a story here could mean different things to different editors. But I sure wouldn't feel right signing something where I agreed that my story had never appeared in print or online in any form. And if not to be the first to release your story into the world, what are they paying you for? Just because a story runs in a magazine and only people with subscriptions can read the story, it sure still counts as published. Wait, is it because anyone can buy this magazine? Well, anyone can create an account and read the content behind a password here. But I think the real big problem is the money. They are paying you to be the first. I guess the question is would they still really be the first? Would they still think your story is worth $1,ooo? There are a ton of online journals that aren't well known and don't pay. An editor at a place like that really might not care at all, or he might. He just thinks your story is great, but he wants you to take it down before he runs it. There might be a problem there. It's my understanding threads are never taken down. So, I don't know. You could have a problem or you could not. Then there are the places that shell out a lot of money for short stories, and I believe that they want to buy something that they don't think anyone else has. And there will be contracts that say similar things to what I have seen in contracts.
     
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  11. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    As a side thought, we're talking about a contract, not about a stated policy. Is it possible that that contract was the default, and that if the story had been online in a passworded forum that would have just meant a discussion and an edit to the contract?

    Or, yes, it's entirely possible that that publication doesn't want to deal with that complexity ("You posted it where? OK, it's password protected, but what are the copyright elements of the terms of service? All righty, we'll get our lawyers on that...") especially if it might be dealing with it for a couple of dozen works per issue.
     
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  12. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    I think just about every publication that puts out submission guidelines says they only accept unpublished work. I know some places take reprints, but that's not what we're talking about. You bring up a good point. The whole idea of online workshops and what that means in terms of rights might just be something that an editor doesn't want to deal with or even understand. But then it would be the writer's loss regardless of what that writer had thought or believes. And could they really sign that contract without filling in the editor that it was currently online. You can tell the editor it's password protected, but it could start to seem to that editor that he wasn't going to be the first or only to put your story out there. I believe I know what the places I submit to mean when they say unpublished work. I'm going to stay on the safe side of things.
     
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  13. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    But “published” usually
    means accessible to the general public. Passworded-workshop is not generally considered published.

    I’m not saying that in order to change your mind about your strategy. I’m just saying it because I feel that there’s a definition issue.
     
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  14. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    Here's a link to the sticky and a much longer discussion on this topic. I'm not sure how anyone can be so confident that posting here doesn't take any first rights. Especially when there are other threads on this site that say the exact opposite. It looks like this is a discussion that has gone on for quite awhile. Just looking at the first few posts on the sticky thread it seems like people are warning not to post in workshop if you plan to sell your story. I don't think there is a hard and fast rule on this from every editor. I only know my experience.

    https://www.writingforums.org/threads/does-posting-work-here-harm-our-chances-of-being-published.23612/

    I'm not at all trying to say posting in the workshop section is a bad thing. I just wouldn't post the same story there that I would send to The New Yorker. Actually, for me, and because things are just starting to really take with my writing, I just don't want to do anything that could screw things up for me. If I was going to post a story in workshop it would be for the learning experience and I would hope to get feedback that would help me better with future stories. I would not send the same story out for publication. I don't see why you can't post some stories for feedback and other stories send out for publication. That's just me and how I see it. I guess people are going to have to give this some thought and make their own decisions.
     
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  15. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    To clarify, I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm mostly quibbling about the definition of "published." Anything that I put on my blog or in the public part of this forum is flat-out published and, I believe, all but doomed for getting traditionally published.

    Anything in the workshop section is, I believe, only faintly at risk. But I'm not eager to chase that faint risk, so I wouldn't put the entirety of anything that I hope to get published in the workshop, and I do occasionally eye the one and only scene from the HFN that I put there and wonder if there's a way to write around it so that I can honestly say that none of the HFN has ever been seen by anyone whose identity I don't know.

    I'm into minimizing risk. I'm just picky about definitions.
     
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  16. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    I hear what you're saying @ChickenFreak. But what I've learned is the language in the contracts for short stories that I have seen do not use the word "published," they use the words "appeared in any form." All the stories I've sold have claimed first North American print rights and global online rights. One of my contracts stated that I needed to mention they originally published it if I did anything moving forward. Would you have to go back to the workshop and say, "This story later appeared in The Paris Review where it first appeared and I and contactually obligated to state such?" I don't even know how you would handle something like that. I'm not at all pretending to know more than I do. I just think this is something a writer needs to think about if they are going to send out the same stories they post in workshop as the send out for submission. And I hear know on the novel thing. I would probably give that part the disguise of a really good edit at least.
     
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  17. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    Hey @Carly Berg -- I'm really not trying to scare anyone into doing anything or not doing anything. I was just sharing what I do and why as well as the way it is worded on contracts I've seen. I don't have a million publications, but the language about rights has been similar in all my contracts. I'm glad the workshop section has worked so well for you. I'm not trying to devalue that section or say it shouldn't be used. It seems like since past threads, dating back years, there have been users warning about posting short stories that you want to submit to publications. And now that I've had to sign a few contracts, I can see how maybe it could be an issue. I'm glad I didn't have to find out. In other cases, and with novels, I can see how building a bit of an online following can be a good thing. I would be more likely to put up a chapter of a WIP than a complete story, but the truth is I would probably never do that because, well, it takes guts to put your stuff out there and I'm a total baby.
     
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