Workshop Improvements

I think there is a difference between a 'reaction/vote' and a critique. Maybe that's what these changes are aiming to make clearer. Yes, a reaction ...The beginning is too slow and boring ...gives the writer your opinion. But if that's the sum total of the 'critique' it isn't very helpful, in the long run. Saying what the reader might do to speed up/liven up the beginning is a lot more helpful ...even if the writer doesn't agree.

I keep looking at Amazon 'reviews' and growling under my breath. When I'm wondering how/if a gadget works, for example, or whether it will be compatible with something I already own, I get really annoyed at reading 5-star reviews that say "I love it." Or a one star review that says "This is rubbish, don't waste your money."

I fear this kind of minimalist response attitude can creep into critiques, if we're not careful. Sign of the times? The person gets credit for posting 'a critique,' but in fact, it's not much more than a vote. Twenty words is not exactly War and Peace, is it? As a minimum requirement, I'd say it's fair. For a Workshop to be beneficial, our members need to walk away feeling it was worth their while to post a piece there, because they got feedback that will help them improve. Just sending them away with a pat on the back or a flea in the ear doesn't really do it.

As for feeling overwhelmed ...well, just take multiple suggestions one step at a time. It's not hard.

 

It was a LONG time ago. In 2013. This person has been gone from here for ages.

 

I’m still looking into getting more accurate numbers for the old critiques. It’s complicated to get exact. I’m soliciting some help from the more technical savvy. I’ll continue to post updates.

I’m going to look into removing the minimum word count to post, but see if I can get the system to not register super short posts as critiques. (Or we can scrap the minimum word count entirely). The new system is somewhat dynamic, so we may be able to improve it with better features and functionality.

I agree that having the author approve critiques isn’t exactly what is needed. What if critiques that receive x votes (like button essentially) are counted as 1.5 or “y” workshop credits? It’d be a way to reward the most useful critiques without a word count requirement. I’m not 100% sure but I believe a system like that would not be difficult to implement.

Since we’re on the subject already: what would the ideal critique system look like?

 

That sort of ties into the discussion about adult content as well, as the Erotica workshop is somewhat close to a dead zone. Not only are submissions and critiques few, but one could anticipate that likes would also be fewer there. There are some workshops I haven't yet looked at, such as Song Lyrics, and there may be other very-low-traffic ones among them.

 

Are there user-selectable alternative "skins" or "themes" for this installation of XenForo (or for XenForo generally)?

I'd sure love to be able to select one where the date of a post is prominent at the top of it, though clearly there are many other and more important changes claiming resources at the moment.

I would say that in the current appearance, the date of a post is the most obscure element in the entire post — the tiniest and lowest in contrast, and in the least examined position of any rectangular presentation (at least according to traditional human factors tenets, which have languished unremembered and unheeded in recent years) except possibly its ordinal number. As a newcomer, you really have to go looking for it to find it.

 

And as an enthusiastic newcomer, you think Oh, THAT's a great topic! I'll dive in. And not noticing the date—or realising that responding to an old thread is an unwritten no-no—they make their first couple of posts. And get roasted? Not a good way to welcome newcomers. As a faux pas, it's a pretty small one, in my opinion.

If the necro post appears in the Workshop—and it might, in areas of the Workshop that aren't particularly popular—it does make sense to gently point out to the newcomer that the person who posted that piece has probably moved on considerably since they posted it. But in other areas of the forum? If a topic has relevance to a new member, it probably has relevance!

 

How about a little pop-up or some banner text above the reply box that says "This thread is more than X months old and the author may no longer be active"?

 

The case of necro-critiques is a special one, of course, because critiques are most relevant and useful to the author of the critiqued submission, and while that version of the submission remains current. Even in this special case, though, critiques are also useful to other people committed to learning about the crafts of writing and critiquing.

In the more general case, the prevailing negativity (in broader forum culture web-wide) toward necro-posts and thread revival says something unflattering about our time and its level of intellectual seriousness. Except when discussing current events (broadly defined), opinions of substance don't lose their relevance simply because the discussion ceases to be new. Even replies to specific questions often remain relevant if the question was worth discussing in the first place. One is contributing to building up an abiding resource.

I haven't noticed negativity here about replying to old threads in most contexts, even when pointing out that a writer who requested critique quite a while ago is now banned or MIA, and that has been part of forming a positive impression of the site. When I see on other sites a judgmental or self-righteous reaction against replies to old discussions, it gives me the impression that the venue is more oriented toward novelty than substance.

 

I don't know about 'ideal', and I don't know what the software and available mods would allow, but I've registered a couple of domains to house a fiction critique (only) site where anyone can post writing for critique, but pieces will have to garner a certain number of critiques in a specific period of time or the story will be removed. I'm still working out the details, but it should at least take care of the necro-thread issue and remove the requirement of so many critiques before a member can post his/her work. Any ideas along those lines gladly accepted.

 

This^^. No disrespect to Daniel but I find the new system looks more like the recycle bin on my computer than a critique forum. I know the tags are supposed to help but I like being able to click on a genre folder and finding something new to read and critique. It just feels jumbled to me now. I also liked how the old system let you know when something new was in a genre folder, now you just see the latest of what’s in sub forum rather than something I’m interested in. Could be I’m just clinging to the past like a cave man clutching a stone hammer.

 

You can filter by genre by clicking on one of the tabs. But it's not obvious, and I preferred the old layout too.

 

The other problem with necro-crits is they push newer work down the page. People tend to look at work nearest the top, so it can divert attention away from more recent work. I think if someone puts the effort in to do a crit, it is better spent on a work where the author is around to receive it.

 

I like the big list where everything is in one place because it makes the forum look more active. And it gets more eyes on the less-active stuff.

I also see what you guys mean about things getting pushed down the list quickly, though. GenericSNRI posted a new piece on Saturday (only four days ago); it's already fallen way down the list ("below the fold," as Big Soft Moose put it) and it has zero responses.

Agreed, yeah. I think this would be the best of both worlds.

 

Can the default sorting order not be set per-forum? If workshop posts were sorted by original thread date, that would solve the problem of recent threads getting pushed down by replies to old threads. Bolding thread titles would still show which have unread replies.

There would still be Alerts, New Posts, and possibly even a New Posts In This Forum option to keep new replies from getting lost below the fold.

It's sort of true that one can't have it both ways (on the same page display) -- either new threads are most important or new replies are most important. But even if one can't have it both ways, one can still have it either way, chosen / changed with a single click.

 

Heh.... I just assumed it wasn't that interesting. Does illustrate the concern though.

I was literally just about to suggest what you just suggested. +1

 

That still makes sense to me. Whether low-, medium-, or highbrow — or Neanderthal — erotica is a different set of values, goals, and expectations. Plus some people don't want to be reminded of it.

The only reason it's an issue in this discussion is the current inability to include mostly or entirely non-erotic sexual content elsewhere. I'm confident that a solution to that is in the process of emerging.

(By non-erotic, I mean not appealing to an average reader's erotic attunement. Scenes can obviously be erotic to characters without being so, or being less so, to readers. Some writers even make comedy of characters' erotic haps and mishaps.)

 

Tuppence worth: I'd suggest sticking to the 2:1 critique:submission thing with a word minimum, but holding back a member's first entry from being published until after a mod has checked they have two legit critiques, rapping knuckles if needs be. This assumes that its mostly an issue for new members, and mods may hate suggestion as it could cause too much workload.

FYI I'd been meaning to do more critiques anyway, and have done a fair number of workshop submissions. But I'm surprised to only have one credit. At a guess I'd be surprised if I was under 4:1, discounting short not very useful messages. Is it one thread is one critique, rather than one mesaage is one critique? That would make more sense, I could understand why and would be sensible. Like I say its not an issue for me, but its a data point if you're trying to tweak the system. Or maybe I'm just even more of a taker than a giver than I'd noticed!

 

I'm finding it more difficult to see what new workshop posts there are. On the home page it only shows the most recent post in the whole of Novels & short stories. But if I drill down into Novels & short stories to see what's new in the subcategories, the subcategories aren't there now and it's sorted by most recent reply. The old layout made it easier to see what was -new- because (for example) a reply on a General Fiction thread didn't used to move where the latest Fantasy thread would appear on the page. It was much easier to skim before. Scrolling down the list of Novel & Short Stories workshop submissions there are about 4 this week I hadn't noticed at all.

Probably I will try and use the RSS feed facility instead of keeping the home page open. This might be useful to other users for lots of things.
EDIT: nope. The site only seems to have a single RSS feed at https://www.writingforums.org/community/-/index.rss, not separate ones for each forum to let users receive the genres they're interested in. If the platform isn't auto-configuring it for each forum, probably this would be more work to set up than people would actually use it.

 

Now that I've several times stumbled into getting enthusiastic about and mentally framing comments on submissions that turned out to be quite old, I make a point to sort workshop threads by start date. (Though the option is only present in a large format, and I also wish XF would remember my sorting preference per-forum.) So it's really only an issue for new members.

And I do notice (now! six months down the road) that there's a very discreet dateline at the top of submissions, only not at the top of each comment. But the first thing I see is always the most recent comment, and its date is ultra-discreet—and typically less than a day or two old.

That reminds me of another angle: submissions disappearing. Although there are advantages to the Scribophile practice of hiding "expired" critique submissions, that's not the philosophy here, and there are advantages also to this way. On a number of occasions I've seen references to someone's first critique submissions or experiences here, and then gone looking to see the threads in question. In most cases, they were pre-reorganization and thus lost to posterity. (Or maybe there is already a backward cutoff preventing the listing of threads moribund a certain number of years.)

Whatever solution is eventually implemented to the challenge of allowing-while-age-restricting non-family content outside the Erotica forum, one hopes it would maintain the current resource of historical submissions and critiques.

 

So you're not seeing the baby-blue genre buttons before the thread titles?

My new practice is to click "General" (because that's where I tell myself I might have something relevant to say) and then Start Date. For me, that shows all General Fiction submissions in descending date order from the most recent start date, not the most recent reply date. And the ones with comments I haven't seen have bolded titles.