Writing Classes

Discussion in 'General Writing' started by ASBPunkin, Sep 4, 2008.

  1. NeveroddoreveN

    NeveroddoreveN New Member

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    Xoic, I completely understand! Back in middle school (ages ago!), I had written the first chapter of a novel I was writing at the time - I was still rather new to the trade and hadn't really found my niche - and I gave the 10 page manuscript to a teacher that I had a HUGE amount of respect for. Fast forward maybe a week or so, I hadn't heard anything about what I had given him, and I found myself with some friends in the teacher's lounge. One of my friends (for some strange reason) was going through the trash can by the door, and he pulled out what looked like a book report. Lo-and-behold, it was the chapter I had given to that teacher. He had thrown it away. To add insult to injury, the friend that found my work read the first page and said it was the dumbest thing he had ever read. Granted, this was twenty-seven years ago and again, I was still trying to find myself in my work. I was really hurt, but it was also motivation to work harder and know that I can't please everyone.
     
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  2. BenjaminLucas

    BenjaminLucas New Member

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    my issue has been solved
     
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  3. Alex R. Encomienda

    Alex R. Encomienda Contributor Contributor

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    If you’re talking about a lecture class or a writing workshop class, that could be a good experience. I’ve taken three writing classes separately and they’ve all been pretty helpful. One of them taught me how to write cover letters correctly and I do that every time I’m submitting a piece to a market so there are things to be learned.
     
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  4. EFMingo

    EFMingo A Modern Dinosaur Supporter Contributor

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    Hey everyone, I'm just wondering if anyone here has tried out MasterClass for learning writing or poetry. I've been looking into it a lot, and I'm pretty impressed with who they got on board for classes, but I'm a bit lost on how in depth or long the classes actually are. I'm interested in the classes by Billy Collins (poetry), Neil Gaiman (storytelling), Joyce Carol Oates (short stories), and Margaret Atwood. There are some others in the popular crowd that may be worthwhile too, such as David Baldacci and James Patterson. It would be pretty exciting to hear what they have to say and how far the classes actually go.

    The price tag is really not too bad, at $90 USD a class or $180 USD for a year full access. For writing classes, that's really nothing if I'm being honest. Just wondering if anyone has listened in or watched one though, and thought it worth it. I'm fully willing to be a guinea pig in this situation, and leave a full review after I've completed a course if anyone wants me to. Just let me know.
     
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  5. Dogberry's Watch

    Dogberry's Watch Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023 Contest Winner 2022

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    I've looked into the Neil Gaiman one because I think it'd just be fun to hear his lessons, but money is a bit tight right now. I'd definitely do the full year access, though, because then I'd be able to do as many as I wanted for a rather cheap price. The Neil Degrasse Tyson one also looks cool to me.
     
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  6. EFMingo

    EFMingo A Modern Dinosaur Supporter Contributor

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    I saw that one too, and he is my favorite astrophysicist and science presenter right now. But the subject matter of his class seemed extremely important and useful. It was how to think like a scientist, and communicate effectively. Hugely important skills for pretty much anyone. And talk by an eloquent speaker with a soothing voice. Yes, please!
     
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  7. Historical Science

    Historical Science Contributor Contributor

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    I would recommend it. $180/year is a drop in the bucket as far as education is concerned. And like everything, you get what you put into it. I signed up for a year and went through several courses. The courses are about 5-6 hours worth of video (broken into 20-25 videos) but there are also exercises to go along with each video and discussions with other members. Neil Gaiman, Margaret Atwood, James Patterson, Dan Brown, David Baldacci, R.L. Stine, and Billy Collins were all fascinating and do a great job of explaining their process. It may seem a little repetitive at times as all how-to guides tend to be but I think they do well to focus on how THEY go about their craft and make it clear that this is certainly not the ONLY way to go about it. It's also quite inspiring. One of the reasons I didn't go through as many courses as I thought I would was because every time I watched a video, I would be inspired and jump into my own writing. They are also constantly adding new material and it seems like every single instructor is a top dog in the industry. They have plenty of other useful courses like cooking with Gordon Ramsay and Wolfgang Puck too.

    Basically, it's a fantastic tool. And if I wasn't about to start an MFA program, I would probably sign up for another year.
     
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  8. EFMingo

    EFMingo A Modern Dinosaur Supporter Contributor

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    That sounds perfect. Yeah, I'll give it a try. A little short, but not as short as I worried about.

    I'll be starting my MFA too, but at the end of the year though. Best of luck to you!
     
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  9. keysersoze

    keysersoze Senior Member

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    I took the David Mamet drama writing course. These courses work depending on how seriously you approach them. I took the course very seriously and it helped. However, I was disappointed when I got no feedback on the assignments I submitted.
     
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  10. EFMingo

    EFMingo A Modern Dinosaur Supporter Contributor

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    Assignments you submitted? Are you able to submit assignments in the class and supposedly get a response back?
     
  11. keysersoze

    keysersoze Senior Member

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    Yes. They asked to break the entire story in 15 beats. I did that. Submitted. I waited for weeks for a feedback. I hope they provide feedback to someone. Why have they put it there if they were not going to provide feedback. There was a second assignment too. But I didn't do it. I think all masterclasses have assignments. If you find one where they give a feedback, please let me know.
     
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  12. EFMingo

    EFMingo A Modern Dinosaur Supporter Contributor

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    I think I'm going to give the Billy Collins one a try first, so I'll let you know if I do get some feedback.
     
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  13. Aceldama

    Aceldama free servant Contributor

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    Depends on the type of writer and learner you are. It probably jives well with a lot of people but I couldn't see it being worth even a small investment of $180. At the end of the day they wont tell you anything you couldn't find out on your own and all in all they are talking about what works with them.

    On the other hand, if you can dig through the information and pull out the objective gems there are sure to be it could be a great experience. All in the reasons why you do it and what you do with what they say.
     
  14. crocoyes6

    crocoyes6 New Member

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    Taking a writing class gives you the opportunity to focus on writing for a set period of time, whether it's a once-off day or a set of several weeks. It's a way of taking yourself seriously as a writer and ensuring that there's space blocked off in your schedule for writing-related things.
     
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  15. PaperandPencil

    PaperandPencil Active Member

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    I consider myself a beginner in writing and so far I've taken a year of local fiction workshops run by masters level students of the university from which I graduated with a B.A. (it was in Music however). I spend most of my time composing music but in between I like to write (very) short stories and I'm not sure I even ever expect myself to have a writing career. I have started writing more elaborate programmatic descriptions of my music though... Someday I hope to do an RPG project with my own story and music.
    I totally agree there. Although I have taken one Children's Literature class in which the teacher thought of writing as going to the gym. That similie doesn't really work for me. For me to write I need inspiration and time to think. I don't think forcing yourself to write everyday is necessarily good and it's not like exercise at all.
     
  16. cosmic lights

    cosmic lights Contributor Contributor

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    A writing coach is different to a teacher who actually teaches the craft of writing. A coach tends to help them develop their project, work on a writing schedule, a date for completion, how/when to edit, showing to beta reader and when to do that. Their purpose to is encourage, help keep focus. They usually need to be a lot more experienced and knowledgeable.

    There is a writing forum called "The Writing Coach" which is an online forum specializing in those looking for coaching and those interested in giving it. Never been a part of it so have no idea what it's like.

    I've never asked for a mentor or coach although one person on another forum seemed to unofficially take me under her wing a little bit. She gave me extra advice in PM's and gave my questions and writing more attention. She never specified why but I really needed the help and guidance so just took it.

    It's hard because who can you trust? How do you know the information and guidance is accurate if you know little yourself. You don't know what you don't know and some people, on the internet, give a 'know it all' air of confidence when actually they know very little or what they do know is wrong or out-dated. So my advice would be writing classes and you get a teacher and a coach all in one. They cost money though. But are well worth it. Self discipline is something I needed to learn and I felt I needed to learn it on my own because when someone encourages you along, then that person disappears, you need to be able to keep going on your own.

    Hope this helped
     
  17. Naomasa298

    Naomasa298 HP: 10/190 Status: Confused Contributor

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    I fear that if I had taken a class, I would be at the point now where Yoda is telling me "unlearn what you have learned".
     
  18. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    This is ridiculous because knowledge is power. There is nothing to unlearn, only more to learn. I will say, however, after spending a solid year on my thesis (a 150 or so page collection), I was still getting rejected everywhere even though my stories were polished to protection. There were no typos or mistakes in the pros and nothing was really wrong with any of my stories. But when I reread them I realized that my MFA thesis read like an MFA thesis. They were good stories, but a lot of them seemed to lack urgency and a strong connection to the current state of the word. To try things out, I rewrote the beginning of one of the stories and loosely tied in some current world issues very lightly. It didn't change the story. What I did is change the way the story was presented. I sent it to one of the top places to sell stories to and they bought it.

    It's not that the MFA program steered me wrong. I wouldn't have known how to make the adjustments I made. And if I wasn't such an avid reader, I would have never thought anything was wrong. And I'm not sure I could have got my thesis stories to the point they were at without my advisor and faculty readers helping me along the way. I learned how to write and revise until I had a good story written with clarity in an enticing way. I learned enough to know when something is off or going to be a hard sell. And I learned what to do about it. Writing programs and classes aren't just about the work you do there. It's not about what you have written. It's about being a writer.

    I still take online classes and lectures. I'm no longer interested in workshop-style classes. I'm not looking for feedback on my work through a class, but I am still interested in learning. And learning the right things can change everything. There's never anything to unlearn. Even with my thesis, I just had to learn the next step on my own, but if I hadn't come so far with my writing, the next step wouldn't have made a difference. I ended up selling half the stories in my thesis. I believe education and learning -- a life-long quest that betters us and our work.

    Those who can take classes are lucky to learn from experts, professionals, or even just those who know a little more than we do. Sure, a lot of people don't think they need classes and I'm not telling anyone what to do, but almost everyone I knew thought I was crazy for taking writing classes, saying I could already write well. Whether that was true or not, I knew I wasn't at the level I wanted to be. And I never expected a class to make me better. It was always about learning things that would help me in the long run. And just a word of advice to anyone taking a workshop-style class, the reading assignments are often more important than the writing assignments. You're not in a class to get feedback on one story. That's silly. You're there to learn what makes a good story and what doesn't. If you can learn to recognize such things, that would mean at least your taste level has graduated. And that's a really important step.
     
  19. Naomasa298

    Naomasa298 HP: 10/190 Status: Confused Contributor

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    It's not ridiculous at all. It was a little flippant, but like ANY skill, when you reach a certain level, you need to know when to break all those rules you learned.
     
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  20. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    So, you reach a certain level and stop learning? What about reaching the next level and the next level after that. Honestly, in all my writing years of writing classes these rules that everyone here likes to refer to were never discussed or if they were it had to be many, many years ago when I was brand new, but I really don't think these things were part of my learning experience at all. In my experience, what you can look up online is very different than what you can learn in the classroom.

    And breaking or not breaking rules isn't what makes you a good writer. I probably follow more rules than I break because they make sense for good writing, but I don't think about rules at all. And I don't think you would want to unlearn something just because you found a creative way to do it better in whatever you're writing. That wouldn't mean you would always break that rule. The rules of writing are pretty basic and a good foundation to build on. That's just common sense, not a class lesson.
     
  21. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    In any form of art there are the beginner rules, which as Naomasa says you can let go when you really know what you're doing. These are what I call training wheel rules, that need to come off later. In fact it's a weird thing—often the work of the masters is filled with what seem very close to beginner's mistakes, leading to a lot of beginners complaining "How come he can do it but we can't?"

    It's because when you've learned enough, you know how to do it in such a way that it's no longer a mistake, it's done deliberately and for a definite purpose. Example, you do need to learn the difference between showing and telling, and learn that usually telling is not the best choice. But once you know this, telling can serve some excellent purposes, and you might even choose to do an entire story that way—not out of beginner's ignorance, but because it's now become a tool that you know how to use well.

    That's when it's time to discard the rule Show, Don't Tell. In a way 'discard' is a bit of a misnomer, really you've just learned a new level of subtlety and sophistication and no longer need to use it as an iron-clad rule. But in the Zen tradition, they just say "Unlearn what you've learned" in an effort to come across as profound and paradoxical.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2020
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  22. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    The point is that classes are not about writing rules and not just for beginners. If you've all been mastered the craft to the extent of your limits, all the best to you. Of course, there are other ways to learn, but, for those who keep harping on writing rules, I don't think you're learning much or teaching much to others. That's just my opinion and, as always, based on my experiences.
     
  23. PaperandPencil

    PaperandPencil Active Member

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    I know that the masters level students who did the teaching in my fiction workshops claimed that one of the important questions in interviews for a teaching position is "How many writing classes have you taken?" I guess that's because the experience these kinds of classes provide is irreplaceable.
     
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  24. Naomasa298

    Naomasa298 HP: 10/190 Status: Confused Contributor

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    Did I say that? Or did I say anything about stopping learning? Kindly don't put words in my mouth.

    What I said was, you need to know WHEN to break the rules. I've seen tons of people on here who are so bogged down by trying to stick to certain rules they've learned that they don't even know where to start, or are so put off by it that they never start.
     
  25. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    All I'm saying is these writing rules and writing classes have very little to do with each other. I'm so sick of people wanting to dismiss so-called rules and classes. These things are designed to make you a better writer. Great if you don't need them, but they both are good resources for a writer to turn to, especially when they aren't satisfied with the work they are producing. That's all. I didn't call out anyone or mean to. I'm only offering my two cents in this discussion.
     

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