Writing "experts" - who do you trust?

Discussion in 'General Writing' started by BayView, Sep 1, 2018.

  1. srwilson

    srwilson Senior Member

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    Marketing is in general a deception. I didn't say I had a solution, I said equal marketing would be fair, not that it could actually be possible. And people should be aware that a well marketed and highly-praised book is not necessarily a good book, or movie or album.
     
  2. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

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    Hmmm. Advice, yes. Rules to fictional writing? As far as I'm concerned, there are no rules to fictional writing. By all means, look up and understand the rules of spelling and grammar, but for everything else, anything goes.

    But that doesn't mean you can forget all about about plots, characters, story developments, beginning/middle/ending stuff. It just means that there really is no formulaic rule that will guarantee you a bestseller.
     
  3. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

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    @NigeTheHat this November marks ten years of you being here - happy tenth anniversary!
     
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  4. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

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    There are plenty of people (not me) who liked her books and actively bought them - even though they were buying them twice to fund her ego and planned movie production - but I don't think it makes her a bigger expert.

    I think each author probably knows what works for them and can advise on different ways to move forward, but I don't think that what works for one author will automatically work for other authors too.
     
  5. NigeTheHat

    NigeTheHat Contributor Contributor

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    Jesus Christ, I wish marketing was a deception. My job would be so much easier if that was the case.

    I think they are aware. Show me anyone who thinks an advert's going to say something like 'Chapter 5 drags a bit, but Chapter 7 is pretty neat if you get there' and I'll show you someone who has trouble working out how to dress themselves in the morning.

    And apart from all that, the flip to 'people should be aware of how marketing works' from 'marketing shouldn't happen because there are books in the world I don't like' is still a pretty new shift in your argument.
     
  6. NigeTheHat

    NigeTheHat Contributor Contributor

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    I know, right? Amazing how in that time I've grown from a 25-year-old who thinks he knows everything to a 35-year-old who thinks he knows everything.

    I think there's a couple of regular posters here who have been around longer, but aside from @Wreybies I'm not sure who. There's definitely plenty who have been around more consistently.
     
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  7. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

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    Hi, I'm a 45 year old who knows nothing LOL! Tempus fugit and all that!
     
  8. srwilson

    srwilson Senior Member

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    I'm not aware of any shift, but interested how your job would be easier. And just as an example of successful marketing of a poor product, The Last Jedi has made a profit of over 1 Billion Dollars. Yet the popular consensus, if you look into it, is very much against the movie.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2018
  9. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I think it’s a simplification to say that’s about marketing. It’s about love of the original Star Wars trilogy. People keep hoping to get the magic back.
     
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  10. John Calligan

    John Calligan Contributor Contributor

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    The Last Jedi was great. Of the eight children's movies about space wizards and Muppets, I rate the Last Jedi as the fourth best. I liked it. I fell asleep during Rogue 1 and never saw Solo, though it sounds average and boring.
     
  11. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Also? Solo did not do well. If everyone obediently troops into the theater on the marketers’ command, how do you explain that?
     
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  12. X Equestris

    X Equestris Contributor Contributor

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    What popular consensus? Metacritic and Rotten Tomatoes? Internet echo chambers? None of those are very scientific. But if we look at exit polling for the movie, we find a far, far more positive picture.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/comic-riffs/wp/2017/12/18/how-the-last-jedi-became-the-most-divisive-star-wars-movie-yet/?utm_term=.e31ab07ef272

    "Those online metrics do diverge greatly from some better-known exit-polling scores. Opening-night audiences gave “Last Jedi” an “A” grade, said CinemaScore, and according to comScore’s PostTrak metrics, 2 in 3 viewers judged the movie to be “excellent” while 79 percent said they would “definitely recommend” the movie, reports Variety."

    As ChickenFreak noted, Solo didn't do very well. Why? They marketed it pretty well and pretty heavily. Well, speaking as a fan of the franchise, I was never very interested in seeing Han's origin story. Most of the other Star Wars fans I've talked to agreed. It was a movie nobody really wanted.
     
  13. NigeTheHat

    NigeTheHat Contributor Contributor

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    Because selling stuff is a piece of piss when you can just lie to people. Despite popular perception, advertising isn't lying.

    I thought The Last Jedi was a great film. The bit with the casino went on for too long and didn't feel well thought-through, but the other plot strands worked really well. The people railing against it, as far as I could tell, were mostly people invested in their version of Star Wars and how they thought the characters should act and how their stories should go. They thought it was a bad film because it didn't match the story in their heads. I don't have a story in my head for Star Wars, and I thought it was pretty good.

    Which kinda comes back to what everyone else has been saying for a few pages now - 'good' for me isn't necessarily 'good' for you. While I enjoyed The Last Jedi, I thought Rogue One was easily the best Star Wars film I've ever seen. @John Calligan clearly doesn't. This is fine. Neither of our opinions are invalid, it's just that good for me isn't the same as good for him.
     
  14. srwilson

    srwilson Senior Member

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    Notice how you describe the original trilogy as being loved. I agree, but then the series was unloved, so your logic could work the opposite way. People were disillusioned. BUT with marketing you can convince people the magic will return. It's the marketing that tries to capture that original magic.
     
  15. srwilson

    srwilson Senior Member

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    Less marketing. How would you?
     
  16. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    If marketing is a surefire way to get the consumer zombies to file into the theater, why would the people who own Star Wars choose to succeed with one movie and choose to fail with another?

    Maybe consumers retain free will after all? Maybe they were interested in the main plot arc, but a rehash of a character primarily associated with an actor who obviously can’t play his younger self didn’t interest them? Luke was played by “Luke”. Han was played by some guy.
     
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  17. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    What series?
     
  18. srwilson

    srwilson Senior Member

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    Well, your own article confirms it was the most divisive part yet. Exit polls mostly gauge the biggest fans of Star Wars, people who would love it whatever, and have a much smaller sample size, especially the opening night, and in the cinema people enjoy the spectacle. Social media is much more reliable.

    Marketing of The Last Jedi was huge: https://digitalagencynetwork.com/marketing-for-a-new-generation-how-the-last-jedi-crushed-the-box-office/
     
  19. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

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    Word of mouth counts for a lot.

    I have a colleague (works in a different part of the company, I might see her face to face maybe once a year.) who I saw twice this year for a change. Once in July, when she told me she couldn't download one of my books, and once in September after I'd passed on a paperback copy through a different colleague.

    This person, is not someone who easily gets on with people, she keeps herself to herself, doesn't suffer fools and if you didn't know her, you might think she could be quite standoffish. She will also let you know if she thinks you're not pulling your weight at work.

    The only reason I saw her in September was because I (along with 60-odd others) had been dragged into a mass training meeting.

    Anyway, as soon as she saw me, she jumped up, threw her arms around me and said, "the book was brilliant, better than the first one, I cried through two of the chapters!"

    Now that's all well and good, and I'm still smiling about that comment, but my advertising budget is zero, so unless she TELLS someone else about it, the book won't sell.

    A similar thing happens with lots of movies and TV programs. All the adverts in the world couldn't make me watch American Horror Story, but listening to my best friend rave about it made me give it a go. I ended up binge-watching the first 6 seasons in less than six weeks. Good job I don't sleep much.

    Also, it matters not (from a sales point of view) whether someone likes the product or not, the fact that the product was bought int he first place, is what matters. You don't come out of the cinema and ask for a refund because you hated the movie ... you pays your money and you takes your chance!
     
  20. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    @srwilson -- I think you have to give people more credit than you are. People aren't just blindly falling for every piece of advertising out there. And at the same time people have the right to advertise anything they want. You're coming across a little young and naive. I'm not saying you are, but your argument seems to be. The publishing world doesn't rely on advertising alone. And advertising alone sure isn't going to make something a success. Give writers and those of us who work in publishing a little more credit. Your argument is bordering on insulting that writers, readers and editors don't know what they're doing. Advertising is only one part of it and not even the biggest part.
     
  21. srwilson

    srwilson Senior Member

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    That's an odd question. Marketing is not sure-fire, you also need a marketable product, for example, part of a franchise. I have never said marketing is everything, but it is the biggest thing. Your points are also significant, but of little value without the marketing. If Mark Hamill is in the movie, you market Mark Hamill, which they did. But if viewers only need to know he's in it, then why bother marketing him?
     
  22. srwilson

    srwilson Senior Member

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    I mean the Star Wars franchise.
     
  23. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    But you still persist in insisting that no aspect of the product itself that relates to the talent of its creators--whether people find it engaging, thrilling, suspenseful, generally enjoyable--has anything whatsoever to do with the product's success? That is your position?
     
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  24. srwilson

    srwilson Senior Member

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    I'm not sure what 'blindly' means, but there is a huge marketing industry which would disagree that marketing doesn't much affect what people consume. In my opinion, that would be naive. Again, I have to repeat, I have never said advertising alone is enough.
     
  25. srwilson

    srwilson Senior Member

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    Sure, the quality of a product has an effect. I have not once said that it doesn't. Firstly, it's nothing without marketing. Secondly, a small amount of marketing has little short-term effect. Thirdly, a mediocre product can be made to look good and well marketed to be successful.
     

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