1. swordlady

    swordlady New Member

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    Writing Female Protagonist/MPDG Avoidance

    Discussion in 'Character Development' started by swordlady, Dec 28, 2020.

    (Sorry if this post is in the wrong category!!)

    Is anyone else super critical of the way they write or create their female characters?

    Everytime I create one, I am always trying to check off an imaginary "checklist" of things to make sure she is not a "manic pixie dream girl" or a "mary sue". As a female writer, I am nervous of accidentally creating one. Even if my character is not even close to being one, I'm still super weary about her showing traits of one.

    Is this normal? Or is this something I need to talk to a professional about, haha.
     
  2. Le gribouilleur

    Le gribouilleur Active Member

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    I don't think you'd get any complaints about having a near-perfect dream girl character in your story if you give her at least one flaw.
     
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  3. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    I don't think anybody is going to complain about your character as such, as long as you don't give her an easy ride through the story. Everybody loves her, she loves everybody except the bad guys, she solves every problem easily, there is no skill she doesn't already have or easily acquires, etc.

    It's not in the initial creation of a character (on a 'traits list') that a Mary Sue is born, but rather it's how that character progresses through the story. Let them be frequently wrong, stubborn, misinformed, aggressive or overly passive. Let them be clumsy or awkward JUST at the moment when it would have been fantastic for them to be skilled instead. Let their personality and physical appearance be realistic. Let their outlook on events and other people also be realistic.

    If they've had a bad past, how does that affect how they react to events and people in the present? (They may be mistrustful of people or overly defensive if anybody criticises them. Maybe they resent being 'helped' because in their experience 'help' always comes with strings attached. This can produce and interesting subplot, when they slowly realise that THIS person isn't actually manipulating them at all.)

    If they've had a 'good' past, that will also affect how they react to events and people in the present. (Maybe they'll be too apt to wear rose-coloured glasses ...becoming the 'let them eat cake' type? Or be naieve when it comes to what other people may have suffered ...'aww, but she's your MOTHER ...I'm sure she loves you," etc.)

    Your character really doesn't evolve until they are given a story. That's when they take on life—and they may surprise you. Let them.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2020
  4. powseitch

    powseitch Member

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    One trick I was taught a while back to avoid cliched characters was to invert them.

    By this I mean whatever traits your character has, flip them;
    White? Black.
    Extrovert? Introvert.
    Female? Male.
    Etc etc.

    What always surprises me about this exercise is how even the most cliched character soon becomes a nuanced identity.

    Try it and see how you go. Worst case, you end up with another character at your disposal.
     
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  5. Stormburn

    Stormburn Contributor Contributor

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    The break through I had in developing my female protagonist was developing the other main characters around her (I believe this would hold true if the protagonist was male). I bounced back and forth between all the characters, as one became more fleshed out, it gave me insight into the others. Some of the traits that I had originally gave the protag I assigned to the others. That made her far more mortal, dependent, and breakable, but I retained her agency. It increased the conflict and tension between her and the other characters, the plot and made everyone and everything far more interesting.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2020
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  6. Storysmith

    Storysmith Senior Member

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    There's nothing wrong with some wariness. You don't want to unknowingly retread some worn-out tropes.

    But you shouldn't avoid all of their characteristics. For example, if your character is quirky, that's fine, but just be aware that you've taken a small step in the direction of MPDG. Keep the quirkiness, but avoid heaping on the other characteristics to keep her out of that rut. Even better, consider why MPDGs and Mary Sues disliked, and avoid making a character that falls into that trap. MPDGs are out of favour because they are characters who exist purely to provide other characters with motivation, with no goals of their own, so don't write (major) characters like that.

    Mary Sues are inherently uninteresting because of the lack of challenge that they face. So write characters who are challenged and sometimes fail, with their failures having real consequences. Interestingly, Mary Sues are not restricted to female characters, though that seems to be where they are most likely to turn up. I suspect that's not so much because female characters are more likely to become Mary Sues unless well handled, or because many critics are misogynistic and so harsher on female characters, but because writers of Mary Sues tend to make them female.

    Whatever you do, please don't end up avoiding female characters in order to avoid these tropes. People will complain about bad characters (male or female), so concentrate on good characterisation to avoid that.
     
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  7. Kalisto

    Kalisto Senior Member

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    No, I am not critical. I use the same formula for female characters that I do for male characters.

    1. I establish goals, motive, and conflict. What do they want, why do they want it, and what is keeping them from getting it? Now, I don't need to establish this on the first or even second draft. But at some time, this is a question I need to be able to answer. Most stories (though not all) start when a character makes an irrevokable decision.

    2. Decide what I want to say with this protagonist. Again, you don't have to make this decision on the first draft, but you do have to make the decision somewhere and then ensure that all actions of the protagonist do and all the dialogue they say, are emphasizing that theme. Be specific. This will help plot your character's journey from wherever you decide to start her off to where she ends up by the end. Don't be afraid to change the theme if you have to. If through your writing and your story telling, you might gain some unique insight and have to change how things happen. That's good.

    3. Make the conflict bigger than the protagonist's starting point. If I had to point out what is the biggest problem with female protagonists, this is it. Most female protagonists are too much focused on female empowerment, without even knowing what that even means. So, their protagonist then is good at everything because otherwise she wouldn't be empowered, right? And when she does have struggles, but it's always with the patriarchy (the whole girls don't do xyz thing crap) instead of an actual struggle. You know what will happen when a girl reads about an overly powered female heroine whose only issue is she everyone is telling her she can't do it? Trust me, they will not feel empowered. They will see the silliness for what it is. And when they realize no one is telling them they can't, they will become discouraged. These days, girls find no lack of encouragement to be their best. So we need to adjust our heroines accordingly.

    Think of Mulan (the cartoon, not the movie). She nearly got sent back home. Was it because she was a woman? No. They didn't know she wasn't a man at the time. It was because she really couldn't do it. She had to find that strength and had to push herself even harder to make it.

    So go ahead. Make your heroine in need of mentors, friends, lovers... Let her fail. Let her nearly get sent back home. Hell, let her be rescued, even! But...

    4. ... ensure she always finishes the fight. So maybe your heroine got locked up in a tower and her little mice friends had to come and bring her the key. Hey, it happens! But make sure it's her who is running down the stairs to get what she rightfully earned.
     
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  8. Lazaares

    Lazaares Contributor Contributor

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    There's one interesting advice to give here which is to not be afraid to write a feminine female characters. All too many pop media female characters are ruined by an unusual aversion to traditional femininity. When writers remove that and insert nothing in its place, they are left with the "hourglass shape action man".
     
  9. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    Thank you for this. I needed to hear it.
     
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  10. peachalulu

    peachalulu Member Reviewer Contributor

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    Don't over think it too much. I'm with Jannert it's very hard to develop a character outside of action, you can have a general idea about the character that vague notion like – is she kind or kooky, sweet or vain. But those are just ideas they need actions and choices and conflicts to really make those ideas click in the readers head.

    Take Audrey Hepburn in Breakfast at Tiffany's the ultimate manic pixie girl – everything she did in the movie exposed her character and made her stand out from all the rest, her 'mean red's', her shoplifting Halloween masks, her unsavory job, her past, singing a dreamy song on her fire escape with her hair wrapped in a towel, her no-name cat. Every decision she made, every action revealed her complicated identity and it's not something you can work out without the plot or conflict. It has to evolve from the conflict and within the scenes. Holly Golighty evolves through the progression of the plot where the over riding theme - her inability to belong to anyone - gets tied together through the idea of names – her own past name, renaming Paul after her brother and the no-named cat.

    A Mary Sue usually happens when the writer is having the character do what they think needs to be done and there's no motivation for it. Luke Skywalker had plenty of reasons to rescue Princess Leya, he had the background, history, drive, he was a skilled pilot and shooter, and even knew his aunt and uncle had been killed for the information, and yet he was still reluctant. Rey on the other hand didn't seem to need any reason except that the story called for it. It wasn't a natural consequence of character motivation developing with the plot.
     
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  11. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    I like @Kallisto 's point about the irrevocable decision. At what point does your character decide something that she can't go back on? In other words, where does she burn her bridges? These kinds of choices mean she has to go on, rather than go back. And that should always be a challenge. Think of your own life. When did you face a decision that you had to make? A decision that meant you couldn't just return to the way things were before? These are the kinds of events that build character.

    Unless you are writing a serial or a fairy tale, where the character remains unchanged no matter what, these are the points where your character will mature (or maybe lose confidence, or discover they aren't as smart or skilled as they thought they were.) If you can work with these kinds of plot points in a realistic way, your character will not be a Mary Sue. Even if they end up 'winning,' it will be through their own efforts, not because they've been granted some special status from the start.

    A strong character, in my opinion, is a character who believes that he or she MIGHT lose, if she doesn't do the right things ...and do them well. And these 'right things' are never easy, and usually not black and white.
     
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  12. TheEndOfMrsY

    TheEndOfMrsY Active Member

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    I think it'll be damn near impossible to eliminate all traits that could fit into that category. After all, how many people do you know in real life you could slot into a specific type?

    I think itll be difficult to do that unless you make her a caricature of the opposite and may seem too fake.

    When I'm writing a character, I tend to pull traits from people I know in real life, I think about what they would do in certain situations or how they would respond to the conflict at hand. Sometimes, I smush two or three people I know together to create my character so they fit into the story.

    (Of course, I've never told anyone I do that :twisted:)
     
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  13. Storysmith

    Storysmith Senior Member

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    I agree that writers shouldn't be afraid of writing feminine women. But the "hourglass shape action man", or "man with breasts" as I've also heard her named, isn't something that should be avoided for its own sake. Not all women are very feminine, and not all men are very masculine, and ideally your cast will reflect that. As an example, consider Brienne in A Game of Thrones. She could be considered an example of this trope, but the story also contains very feminine women (and importantly doesn't equate their femininity with weakness). The variety of characters makes Brienne believable. Perhaps one of the secrets is to have multiple female characters, so that flaws or characteristics in one of them aren't seen as judgements on all women.
     
  14. Lazaares

    Lazaares Contributor Contributor

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    The "hourglass shaped action man" is not about writing a female character as not feminine. It's about wanting to write an effeminate character - perhaps even a bad stereotypical one - but also being afraid of social media backlash. The result is usually a bombastic looking kickass female lead that is carefully pampered with zero repercussions or punishments by the story - while at the same time they also have surprisingly little influence on the story itself on their own.

    Brienne is unique in many ways; sadly, the biggest unique trait she has amongst female TV characters is that she is neither strapping nor average-looking.
     
  15. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    Here's one thing I used to love about the X Files—it featured a lot of unconventionally attractive people. Referring mostly to the protagonist (or possibly antagonist) of single episodes. And it was men and women. I don't think I ever saw a conventionally beautiful model type, you know, like the ones who fill every role on the WB or Sci-Fi Channel (I know, it's Sy-Fy now, or was around the time I stopped watching cable. No idea how it's spelled now). But guess what? It went deeper than just looks (gasp!) At least trying to remember now, it seems the characters had some depth to them, or at least didn't fall into typical conventions. It never became a thing whether a female was feminine or masculine, they were so well written they were more like actual people, rather than plot points or political talking points. There were other things going on in them, plans and plots and schemes and strange character traits leading to fascinating story concepts.

    Hey, there's a revolutionary idea in there! Maybe we could create characters where how they look and how masculine or feminine they are actually aren't the main things...

    Nah, what was I thinking??!! :rolleyes:
     
  16. B.E. Nugent

    B.E. Nugent Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    Bit of a random thought here, but I would love to see one of those John Wayne or Clint Eastwood movies remade with exactly the same script but the genders reversed. Interesting discussion on character development above. I'm taking notes.
     
  17. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

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    That was those 90s haircuts. Not sure what happened in that decade... 60s, 70s, and 80s hair looks charming today.
     
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  18. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    Hah! I just did a quick image search for X Files Guest Stars. Wow, at the time I didn't know who most of them were, but now a lot of the faces are very familiar, including Hank from Breaking Bad. I think a lot of people got an early start on their careers on X Files, including Vince Gilligan, who apprenticed as a writer and then went on later to create Breaking Bad. Funny how that works.

    Sorry, going off track...
     
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  19. Hector

    Hector New Member

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    A girl who read the inside sample of my Superbia novel called me a misogynist. I'm not sure why.
     
  20. Kalisto

    Kalisto Senior Member

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    Unless you actually do something misogynist in real life, she's wrong.
     
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  21. Storysmith

    Storysmith Senior Member

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    It's easy to make claims of misogyny, etc. If you can, I suggest asking why she claimed that. If she can't provide that, the claim should be ignored as baseless.
     
  22. GraceLikePain

    GraceLikePain Senior Member

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    Don't stress it. Just concentrate on making realistic people. If you do this, then you won't have a problem, because a character only becomes a Mary Sue by being unrealistic.
     
  23. Selbbin

    Selbbin The Moderating Cat Staff Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    Observe people and then write them. We're all different, and there are people who fall into the cliché's, be they cultural or literary. It's hard to write different people and it takes a sense of both imagination and empathy. Don't worry about how the characters may be seen according to some list or category. Only use those if the characters are not working to figure out why. If they are working, a list or category is irrelevant.
     
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  24. The inquisitive writer

    The inquisitive writer Member

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    And Scully’s shoulder pads. Let us not forget the shoulder pads.
     
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