As a heritage speaker of the Chinese language, I use creative writing to maintain and improve my Chinese literacy and writing skills. Only by writing, I have discovered word choices. I send the work to my aunt, and she proofreads it. Then, she sends it back to me. Sometimes, I have to swap out certain words for other words, because the new word works better in context. Other times, I have to replace words, because the word that I have in mind is a regional spoken word, and a regional spoken word is not assigned to a written character formally. Regional spoken words may be "written down" informally, but etymologically correct characters are preferred over characters with a Pinyin pronunciation that sounds like a regional word pronunciation. The more I write, the better of a writer I become. I really like to work with the Chinese language, because in my opinion, it is a very poetic, terse language with very high flexibility in grammar and tolerance in pronunciation. Chinese-language stories originally written in Chinese sound different from Chinese-language stories translated from foreign languages, such as English. However, I realize that writing in Chinese, I must work with Chinese writing techniques. For example, in English, I can indicate how a person pronounces a word. So, this actually becomes a writing technique in the Anglophone world, emphasizing how the character speaks and who the character is. Because of the nature of the Chinese language, I cannot really transfer this English writing technique onto Chinese. Though, different regions in China have their own recognized regional words. Chinese character-words have relatively constant meanings in different dialects/varieties/variants/languages (by "languages", I also include Japanese, Korean, and Vietnamese words derived from the Chinese language and written in Chinese characters), so these regional words often feel like different expressions of the same thing, sharing the same root(s). To be fair, I find that some writing techniques in Chinese cannot really transfer to English. For example, Chinese has a lot of onomatopoeia words, and these words can be used as adverbs and adjectives. English, on the other hand, has too much conjugation, which in my opinion, weakens the onomatopoeia sounds of verbs. Chinese metaphors and idioms work differently than English ones. Grammatically, metaphors and idioms can be used as verbs and adverbs. In English, there is conjugation, and conjugation forces words to put in hard categories - noun, verb, adverb, etc. In Chinese, there is no conjugation at all; the characters themselves can be noun, verb, adverb, adjective, etc. based on context. Chinese is a very high-context language, while English is a very low-context language. Chinese is topic-prominent, while English is subject-prominent, and this has a big impact on punctuation. I mainly write in the Chinese language, because a Chinese-language story can be shared to my family members. Many of them are living in China and only literate in Chinese, with weak or non-existent English skills. Maybe the younger ones have better English skills, because some of them have studied abroad in Anglophone countries. But I think reading in one's own native language is better, because the native speaker can understand the emotions in the story, and the dialogue would flow better. If they like the story, then I would translate the story into English, adjusting the writing techniques to sound more natural in English. Funny thing is, I tend to outline in English very loosely, but the exposition and dialogue are done in Chinese.
I think the way good narrative works is different in the two languages too - that was the impression I got anyway when once I tried to write something in Chinese. The way I'd start a story in English is different to how a story should start when written in Chinese. What is considered good writing, culturally-speaking, is different. I would love to learn more about this, to be honest What makes good writing in Chinese? This is gonna end up being a really niche conversation, huh...
Hah! Got to him or her first! The very first thing I did after reading this post is pm @BBQPorkbelly to learn from the teachings as well and my god, are they enlightening. Please, do go on about your niche conversation, because I might not have anything to add (since I don't speak Chinese), but I'm all ears.
This was a really interesting read. You've clearly put a lot of thought into this, and I'll admit that a lot of the technical stuff you're saying goes over my head. I've never really considered that technique could vary so much depending on language, probably because I read mostly in English, and use it almost exclusively for my own fiction; also, Norwegian and English are surely much more similar than English and Chinese. I think the techniques are pretty much interchangeable, though I wouldn't really know for lack of experience. If I were to write a story in my own dialect (which I have never done) the vocabulary and grammar would change significantly from Bokmål (our predominant writing system) and from English as well. I think that might warrant or even require a new approach. Could be an interesting experiment! As I continue to learn Italian, I'm beginning to sense that writing fiction in that language would be a radically different beast; while it shares a lot of vocabulary with English (and interestingly enough, it has several unique cognates with the Scandinavian languages) the grammar and how one expresses things is, as far as I can tell, quite far removed from English. I'm nowhere close to being able to write anything of length and complexity, but I am looking forward to that day.
I am fluent in both English and Norwegian, but use English professionally. Living in Norway and Norwegian being my native language, I don't have a need to seek out opportunities to practice my Norwegian, by writing or otherwise. I do find the general idea fascinating and wonderful, though. I'm currently learning Korean, so when I can write proper sentences, I think I will try out this "technique", and write a story in Korean, or translate something into Korean or whatever.
All languages have their own writing techniques. For example, a writer may use the word "cook" instead of "simmer" or "sizzle", or vice versa, for whatever reason. The writer may use the word "sizzle", because it sounds like an onomatopoeia in English, it fits the situation, and it creates a visual scene. Same goes for Chinese. Chinese doesn't work any differently. A writer may describe something as 红色的, 红, or 红彤彤的. They all translate to "red" in English, but the difference is the tone. 红 may be preferred over 红色的. 红 just means red (well, to be honest, this character has other meanings, but let's just focus on "red"). 色的 adds no semantic value and can be omitted. I personally prefer brevity, so I lean towards the writing style written originally in Chinese, because foreign translations into Chinese tend to sound very redundant and unelegant. In English, I prefer a more lyrical style of prose.
Thank you @BBQPorkbelly ! As a Finn with difficulties to read or write fluent English, I want to add these things: 1. Writing here improves my skills in writing fluent Finnish. When I write English, I must seek for right words. I must avoid things that are too difficult to me. Like.... What is the plural form of a word sentence? How to tell that I must avoid making sentence's too long and complicated. All that means I must train here skills I don't normally need or use. That means learning those skills a bit. I can take that learning to my writing in Finnish. 2. Finnish language is so different that I must think in totally different way when I write here. And our communication culture is so different that it makes sometimes things hard. That means I must learn new kind of thinking. And I can take... 3. Narrative thinking is a bit different in different cultures and languages*. Learning about that can improve my writing. * - British hint. Finns don't get it. - Americans drown you to empty politeness and wait for you to do the same and when you don't (because you see as dishonesty, not politeness), they feel that you are rude. . - Scandinavian neighbours and Germans are more direct than most other Europeans and Americans but nowhere near as direct as we Finns. - Russians have two layers of truth. You must know which layer is which. - There is something Fenno-Scandian in Irish and Scottish thinking and writing. - And so on... Swedish parody adds about Finns.
"- Americans drown you to empty politeness and wait for you to do the same and when you don't (because you see as dishonesty, not politeness), they feel that you are rude. ." What he said
I started writing around 10-11 and wrote all in English (except for school related things, of course), probably because all the "cool" movies and shows were from England or USA (usually books too, but translated). Once I started publishing online at around 16 I had to write in English to get any readers. As an adult I started to write in Swedish since it made more sense to me. If I'm just writing for myself - why do it in English? If I'm going to try to be published it's most likely in Swedish, so makes more sense. If I had an idea that was specifically for self publishing I guess it would make more sense to write it in English since it'd be easier to find readers. If I move to England it might feel more natural to write in English when all my communication will be in that language, or it might be a reason to keep writing in Swedish... I guess we'll have to wait an see. To me there's not that big difference between writing in either language. Sure, my Swedish will always be better, but the languages are rather similar to me and both of them have their weaknesses and strengths.
Those commercials are great. Swedish with a Finnish accent can be very funny when bent towards that purpose. I think Swedish in general is a great comedic language.
I try to tell @LostThePlot the opposite but he goes between stating it's not a real language and laughing at it
But that's a very contradictory statement. In Chinese, brevity is lyrical. It is not lyrical to jam what you aptly refer to as something that has no real semantic value, but rather it is lyrical to be succinct in Chinese precisely because so much can be implied by splitting up compound words (詞語) and that's also how you end up with lyrical names, by splitting root words and concept from sayings and proverbs and combining multiple ones. You can't do that in English. You must use many words where you could use just 2 or 4 in Chinese that would carry the complexity of twenty words and lyrical sayings. Whereas minimalism in English works quite differently compared to in Chinese. I think literary Chinese also has many more old words, whereas literary English can still sound modern. But that could be down to my lack of exposure to Chinese literature so I'm not really aware of how Chinese writing is now. In Chinese there are many tiers of language that result in vulgar or rich language, whereas I don't feel the same exists in English - not to the same extent and not so overtly. ETA: a quick look on Pleco dictionary tells me 红彤彤的 is rather more similar to "glowing red"? Can't say I'm familiar with 彤 but I do feel like I've heard it before. "Glowing red" is poetic but you see the effect of poetry is achieved differently, since in the Chinese it is achieved not just by choice of word but by the use of consecutive repetition, which doesn't exist in English.
I agree. Specially when they want to be taken seriously. But let's not tell this to our dear neighbours. Let's show them this instead. But not this.
@BBQPorkbelly - I find this particularly interesting and informative: Do you think this affects understanding? In other words, is it easier to be misunderstood in English...or maybe in Chinese?
There are a couple of manhuas that I am reading right now which are translated to English but the translators have added interesting little asterisk points beside some of the translations. They are most definitely a lot more poetic than the English translations. Here are a few examples from the most recent ones I've read: English translation - Translator's note Self-preserving - Greedy for life and scared of death Audacious - Having eaten a bear's heart and a leopard's gallbladder Area of conflict - Place of right and wrong (implying a situation where disagreements are violently resolved) As quickly as you can - Fast horse plus whipping Tear you apart - Split your corpse into ten thousand pieces
I don't know. I speak both, and I get understood in both and misunderstood in both. Eh? I think you misunderstand me. In my previous post, I meant to say that I prefer more lyrical English prose. Nowhere did I say that Chinese is not lyrical. I know how Chinese works. It is my first language. English is my other first language. You don't have to explain it to me. Personally, I would use 红彤彤 to describe a child's face with red cheeks. Yes, it is poetic. Yes, the effect of poetry is achieved differently than in English. Why are you saying that I don't think Chinese is poetic? Nowhere did I say that.
I don't have much to add to this discussion, since I'm only really fluent in English, but I am reminded by something I read about Albert Schweitzer, a native of Alsace who was equally fluent in French and German. After his Out of My Life and Thought was published in German, he was asked by a publisher to provide a French translation. (Or was it the other way around?) He started to produce such a translation, but found out that he couldn't express his thoughts in the nuances of the second language, so he ended up re-writing the whole thing. So future translators of the work into other languages were faced with the problem of deciding which version was the "authoritative" text and which one wasn't, and ended up drawing from both.
I am a person who wishes I was at least bilingual, but I'm not. Unless you count being raised in the USA and moving to Scotland in the middle of my life. But even with that, I have some idea of how different languages are not actually just different words for the same things. There are differences in meaning that just can't be translated directly. Even from Scots into English. (And these are technically branches of the same root language.) Take a Scots word, (which I use a lot these days) dreich. Okay, you could say gloomy. Or sad. Or grey and wet. Or hopelessly sad and wet. Or grey and gloomy without much promise. Or settled, wet and not very inspiring. Or... Dreich says it all.
It's because you said you like brevity in Chinese whereas you prefer lyrical prose in English, and so I read the contrast you made there as you saying brevity is not lyrical. Because brevity is lyrical, it would be that you like lyrical prose in both Chinese and English. But the way you put it, you said you prefer brevity in Chinese as if that is not also lyrical, whereas brevity in English is generally not lyrical. Does that make sense? No, I didn't think that you were saying Chinese is not lyrical. Just that I thought you were equating brevity with the lack of poetry. I think there may be cultural implications of what "lyrical" and "brevity" even means in English that's causing me to interpret things a certain way. But this is why this is so interesting!
It wasn't my intention to make a contrast, so any such "contrast" is based on personal interpretation. Yes, I like lyrical prose in Chinese and in English. When it comes to word choices, I prefer brevity. I suppose you can say "lyrical", but I interpret lyrical prose in Chinese to refer to the whole piece of writing involving metaphors and puns. Another person here asked about whether a high-context language or low-context language is easier to be misunderstood in. I think low-context language, because I have to spell things out for people all the time. I believe that the English language should be more high-context, understanding the situation instead of word-for-word.
Um... you may want to continue learning the Korean language. Anyone can create grammatically correct sentences. But, there is a BIG difference between textbook language and real-life language. For example, when my mother first arrived to America, she had to learn English. She was an adult in her thirties. She had English textbooks, and those textbooks had some pretty stiff sentences. Hi, my name is Bob. What is your name? My name is Susan. Hi, Susan. How are you feeling today? I am feeling fine. Thank you for asking. In order to write a story, you need mastery of a language. You must be able to distinguish this word and that word and use the correct word to express yourself. You must convey tone and emotion. You must be able to think in the language, so that you can write in that language most naturally. Most of all, you must create believable characters. I am a heritage speaker of Chinese. As a heritage speaker, I learned Chinese like native speakers - by total immersion. I was born in China, so I was totally immersed in the language. Then, my parents and I immigrated to America. My parents still spoke Chinese to me, while everyone else in society spoke English. Because of my upbringing, I would say I'm more immersed in English than in Chinese. My entire formal schooling was in English. Because of so much English exposure, my English proficiency has reached native status. Meanwhile, my Chinese proficiency got stuck at the kindergartener's level, before I made the decision to become literate in this language. Fortunately for me, my Chinese-speaking upbringing really helped me study this language, and in a few months, I could communicate in writing whatever I want in Chinese, recite ancient poetry and modern children's songs, and pick up a random children's book and read comfortably. I don't think I ever studied grammar. Grammar just clicked. My current Chinese level would probably be middle-grade; I can probably read as well as a native Chinese pre-teen. Because I had read so many children's stories, I got the idea to create my own children's story mostly for writing practice. My own children's story mimics the style of the children's stories that I like. I personally prefer children's stories originally written in Chinese, because children's stories originally written in foreign languages feel foreign. The vocabulary feels foreign. The names feel foreign as well. The writing style feels so exotic/foreign that I can easily tell that it's a translation without even looking at the cover. Chinese-language stories translated from foreign stories are least likely to use Chinese metaphors and idioms. They may even have that perfect SVO pattern if the story is translated from English, German or Danish (subject-prominent SVO languages), instead of the more naturally-flowing topic-comment structure of Chinese. Chinese is a SVO language, but the subject is not that emphasized that much, because topic-prominence is extremely common. Passive tense is also not emphasized that much, because there is topic-prominence. Children's adaptations of the Four Great Classic Novels feel like archaic Chinese; it has that monosyllabic vibe and uses archaic vocabulary. The more I read and immerse myself in Chinese-language materials, the more I know, the more I feel confident in writing. Reading in Chinese is kind of tricky. If I come across a word I don't know, I have to flip through the dictionary. I am at the level where I can use the monolingual Chinese dictionary. But, if I don't understand the meaning, then I would just look at the pronunciation. Sometimes, the pronunciation and context will trigger something in my memory. Sometimes, they don't help at all; I just move on. I feel that's exactly how I learned English in school. My English teachers would always say that you have to look stuff up in the dictionary and look at the context. Use difficult vocabulary, if you know how to use them. My main point is, writing a story is more than just putting sentences together. You must write with style with believable characters and a coherent plot. If you look at the stories written by young native speakers of English, then you may find that their stories are not that great, because they are still grasping their native language. Once they become older, they have a bigger vocabulary and can express their own thoughts better. It takes time, practice, and a lot of reading.
The structure of a language effects the way we think. The associations effect a lot. The role that language and words have in social world mean... Speech is some kind of reflection of thinking. To make characters right it's essential to get speech right. And that is hard in translating text + taking a story to totally different kind of culture where thinking and associating is different. I'm gonna write some children's stories in one of next few years - 2019 or 2020 or 2021... I'd love to get them published in Chinese as eBooks and/or traditional books and/or audiobooks. And I'm sure that Chinese kids and markets would find Fenno-Scandian characters and narrative quite interesting. Books, TV, movies... Everything is very American. And I'm not sure is it enough in China? Maybe they'd like to get wider variations of characters, social life types and stereotypes of thinking. Like... not so stereotypical?
I'm not gonna publish that shit. It would simply be a starting point. I would write some sentences, and then make each sentence relate to the previous one as much as I can, and then, hopefully, I would become better over time.
China is a big country. It has its own books, TV, and movies. Every province in China has a television network. China also has its own film industry and the Chinese version of American Internet products. China may have blocked out many American web companies, but in effect, this also helped boost Chinese companies to grow into enormous giants. Baidu is the Chinese Google. WeChat is a multi-purpose app that has more functions than American apps. While European countries are small and get entertainment from America, China gets its own entertainment from China. In America, fairy tales mean stories of European origin, Brothers Grimm tales, and Hans Christian Andersen tales. In China, 童话故事 (translated as "fairy tales") include stories of European origin, Brothers Grimm tales, Hans Christian Andersen tales, Japanese folktales, and Chinese folktales. Because of America's position in the world as a superpower, America lives in a bubble. Hopefully, the rise of China can change that, add some influence in Southeast Asian countries, Middle-Eastern countries, African countries (part of the Belt-and-Road Project), and create a multi-polar future.
