Writing Homosexual Characters/Romance

Discussion in 'Character Development' started by Feral Inferno, Jun 14, 2015.

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  1. Hubardo

    Hubardo Contributor Contributor

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    What if a straight person researches the "gay experience" by reading books, watching films, interviewing people, going to gay bars, going to pride parades and events...

    And to take this where it logically leads, should men not write women? There's a chasm of a developmental experience gap there, but if men left women out of all their books...
     
  2. Simpson17866

    Simpson17866 Contributor Contributor

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    Then he now knows about the "gay experience" and is writing what he knows.
     
  3. drifter265

    drifter265 Banned

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    Good point.

    I guess it just goes back to writing what you know and making sure you do your research.

    My answer is posited the way it is because I assume based on your original post that you don't know a lot about the gay community and thus it's why you asked your original question and so I'm assuming you don't know a lot about the LGBT community and simply said to just stick to what you know because if you go further than that you may end up embarrassing yourself because of your limited point of view on the subject.

    What I was saying was don't assume anything because what you think may not actually be what is; for example, not all gay men are flamboyant and not all lesbians are butch.

    I don't think women applies in the same case here. People don't ask these kinds of questions about women because we (men) can get a pretty good idea and point of view of women from movies and books and the fact that they're half the population. But people do ask these kinds of questions about the LGBT community because they are a minority and not as identifiable as women (actually not at all) and so we know much less of their point of view.

    All I think I'm saying is don't jump to conclusions if you don't know a lot about what you're talking about as it may offend the wrong people
     
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  4. Hubardo

    Hubardo Contributor Contributor

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    :) That makes sense, but I didn't post the original question!

    As for men writing women, I don't know... I've heard a lot of women say that men writers often do a botched job.

    Rebecca Stolnit has a great essay called Men Explain Things To Me, which got turned into a tiny book of essays. I liked it so much I got a bunch of copies (they're cheap) because I wanted to have my guy friends read it. None of them ever expressed interest when I explained to them what it was about. All my copies are in the possession of female friends. Funny how that turned out. :p
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2015
  5. Selbbin

    Selbbin The Moderating Cat Staff Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    Getting your idea for women from movies and books simply perpetuates the cliches. Books and movies are a terrible resource for accuracy and understanding. It's already been filtered by a creative, and who knows how much they knew? That's like basing police procedure off CSI: Miami.

    'Write what you know' is an over-used, poorly understood, and simplistic bit of advice that should be ignored and forgotten. It is, in my opinion, worthless. You could say that research and study would equate to knowing, and in a way it does. To 'know' doesn't always mean to experience first hand. It's also to understand. It really should be: 'write what you understand.' But even that is poor advice. It's advice that dismisses all fantasy, all sci-fi, and most books of all types. It dismisses a writer's ability to show empathy and, even better, creativity. So maybe it should be 'if you're shit, stick to what you know.'

    If I were to follow this worthless advice, I would, as a middle-class anglo-saxon hetero middle-aged male, never have written or started a book about a teenage lesbian runaway.

    Lastly, everyone experiences some things in a unique way. Even if there are many similarities. Just because the character experiences a gay relationship in a way that some other gay people don't relate to, does not mean it isn't authentic, believable, or relevant. Yes, you could lower yourself to using cliches, stereotypes and walk in step with the status-quo, making sure all expectations are met in the pursuit of 'authenticity', but really?
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2015
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  6. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    Male writers ask these questions about women pretty often. Women sometimes even ask them about male characters.

    https://www.writingforums.org/search/1735201/?q=female+character&o=date&c[title_only]=1
     
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  7. Miss Lonelyhearts

    Miss Lonelyhearts Member

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    Write like it would be any normal relationship. What is important is the connection, the love element, how they relate and communicate with each other. I'm also writing about a lesbian couple. I tend to have one passive the other one assertive.
     
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  8. T.Trian

    T.Trian Overly Pompous Bastard Supporter Contributor

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    I read @A.M.P.'s post a bit differently: imo saying the experience of gay people being different from that of straight people doesn't in any way translate to the experience of all gay people being the same. They can all be unique yet still different from the straight experience.

    Also, the story's setting has a huge influence on the experience considering there have been (and perhaps still are) cultures/societies where a person found out to be gay (or even accused of it) may face severe penalties or even death. There have been cultures/societies where just looking to get laid as a gay guy sometimes was a coin toss with the very possible worst case scenario being death if you revealed your orientation to the wrong person. Hell, even in recent decades here in the west we've heard of homophobes baiting gay guys to admit their sexuality/show romantic interest only to then take a baseball bat to him. I'd imagine that puts a very different spin on the dating game (although the internet probably makes things a tad safer today). I haven't heard of straight guys experiencing such things when seeking female company (which doesn't mean it has never happened, but it does indicate it's much rarer).

    Even today homosexuality isn't 100% accepted by everyone in the west (ever heard of Christian "reprogramming" camps where the kids are treated so badly, most of the camps have to be located in 3rd world countries with much laxer laws regarding physical punishments even though the camps are largely owned and ran by Americans), so I'd imagine the experience differs from that of the straight experience at least a little bit, especially if the character doesn't grow up in some perfectly equal utopia, so the realization and the first steps towards becoming a sexual being may very well be different from what it would've been if the character was straight (note that this still doesn't mean the experiences of gay people are all the same).

    It's not even just among gay guys: a friend of mine lives in Russia, and she's faced hatred, bullying, and even violence from her peers, usually groups of guys harassing and threatening her or her girlfriend. From what I know, it's not personal, but rather caused by the deep-rooted homophobia in the society she lives in, so a lot probably depends on the era/milieu of the story.

    But that's just my personal take on the issue (and of course @A.M.P. can correct me if I misunderstood his intent), not the Ultimate Truth, and I'm not denying the possibility that some gay person's experience could be identical to that of some straight person's. I'd just imagine it's relatively rare considering even straight experiences tend to be quite unique in their own right.
    For what it's worth, I represent a couple of letters in QUILTBAG although I generally fly under the radar.
     
  9. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    I'm current reading (listening to) Hero, a YA superhero book, and I'm not really enjoying it. There are quite a few issues, but one of them is absolutely the treatment of the MC's sexuality. I'm not sure of an exact time-period for the book, but the hero laments the fact that his friends all have cell phones and he doesn't, so that's got to be with the last twenty years, I'd say.

    And the hero is totally ostracized for being gay. There seem to be no support groups for gay kids, everyone is openly homophobic toward him, his father shuns him, the public finds out he's gay and his house is repeatedly vandalized, etc. - I don't mean to minimize homophobia, but this was just so unrelentingly over-the-top that it started to seem ridiculous. I'm almost done the book (thankfully) and thus far there have been two (female) characters and one alien who've reacted to the MC's sexuality with anything but disgust.

    If feels like the author is overstating the case as a way to drum up extra sympathy, but that isn't working for me, at all. So, you know - acknowledge, but don't go over-the-top, maybe?
     
  10. Chelsea

    Chelsea Member

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    I agree with the above. Lesbians are just like other people, they have the same kind of problems and thoughts and hobbies the only difference is they are lesbian. I have a family member who is lesbian. We were very close when we were children and teens, I never knew she was lesbian until she was about twenty years old. We were not very close for awhile due to personal things on both sides. We are close again now and she has the same personality traits she did when we were teens. Her and her fiance act the same as other couples do. Neither one of them is butch or overly girly. They are not like a stereotypical lesbian couple at all.
     
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  11. Red Herring

    Red Herring Member

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    I assume you, much like me, don't know what it's truly like to live with the stigma of homosexuality, or ever have a gay relationship; but I'm sure you've been in love, you've been heartbroken, etc. All those things are the same no matter if you're gay, bi or straight. It's the universal things that are important, not the arbitrary. To me, characters become less interesting when the writers focus on their situation (ie the stigma of their homosexuality) rather than who they are, what they want and how they feel as human beings. I watched Sense8 recently, and one of the gay characters Lito was my least favourite because his romance felt superficial to me; sure there were a lot of sex scenes between him and his partner(and you have to applaud them for taking those steps in this day and age), but I never felt they were in love. Love is not just physical; it's a visceral feeling, it's a connection and the writers never conveyed that. And Lito was also just very uninteresting and one dimensional; being gay was the biggest defining trait for him, and to me sexuality shouldn't entirely define a person; may be people might disagree with that but that's just how I feel. I personally liked Felix from Orphan Black; he was fun, entertaining, cared for his family and friends; there was more to him than just being gay, there was a sense of universality to him that anyone could connect with.

    If you know what it's like to be in love, to lust, to have those butterflies in your stomach when you have your first kiss, etc; then you know how to write a homosexual romance. Let the emotions be the focus and you'll have a compelling romance. Personally, if you write and convey characters who love each other and have an emotional connection, then I don't really care what their sexual orientation is; I'll enjoy it.
     
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  12. theoriginalmonsterman

    theoriginalmonsterman Pickle Contributor

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    You could ask someone who's a homosexual. I mean I don't think it would offend them if you asked; I'm sure they would be happy to help.

    In my own personal experience however homosexual people aren't really different from straight people. The only thing that makes them different as a whole is that they like the same sex. I mean look at Ellen DeGeneres.
     
  13. Mattiemae

    Mattiemae Member

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    gay and lesbian aren't really any different then straight relationships. The only difference is a lot of male or female hormones clashing. For example a woman and man act differently in a relationship. Men are from mars and women are from Venus type thing. Men and Men will both be masculine energy. One man is dominate and one is submissive. Extrovert Vs. Introvert.
    Extrovert Vs. Extrovert might be more trouble. Introvert vs. Introvert destructive in another way. Female Vs. Female same thing. One woman is more dominant the other. Maybe stronger masculine energy on feminine energy. Yin Yang type thing. Dark versus light in the psyche. Human Nature more then gender. Personality type or disorder.
     
  14. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    Most of this is incomprehensible, but the parts I did understand I disagree with.

    Men and women are both from Earth, literally and metaphorically. There's no masculine or feminine energy, two same-sex people in a relationship are not automatically divided into one being dominant and one being submissive. etc.
     
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  15. Mattiemae

    Mattiemae Member

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    Men are from mars & woman are from venus is a book. It's a matter of opinion I suppose but if I remember right in my psychology classes we talked about everyone has female and male traits. As in some woman are in the board room, hunters, outdoorsy, while other woman may be very girlie, not want to get dirty, break their finger nails, and be frilly and pink.

    Some men may be more feminine in fashion, beauty products, and girlie like with emotions. If you can't see that in society I'm very sorry, but most people do have both feminine and masculine qualities and if balanced they can use both to their advantage. A girl can be a tom boy, and leave the girlie stuff. A boy can play with dolls, dance, and where make up. Some people will say they feel caught in a female or male body, but be feminine or male.

    Hanging out with a bunch of gay guys at one point I can tell I can see the difference and same with females. Dominant and Submissive is all over the world in relationships period. All you have to do is look around society. People just aren't aware of it, because they're used to being co-dependent, emotionally, and mentally abused, it seems normal to let someone else dominate them and push their buttons. Most domestic disputes are caused by two people wanting to control the other. If you know about the people code/color code personality, you will learn The Red's are the most dominant in our society. Your strict authoritarian boss, coach, business man or woman in the board room.

    By all means you have the right to disagree, I only know from my experience, what I've studied, and what I've observed. Even people who say they are not in a dominant or submissive relationship usually are it's human nature to win in any fight, to dominate another, prove them wrong, and even in some cased kill until they're proven their point. I would consider that a masculine trait more than a feminine one that would be more nurturing. Men can be nurturing just as woman. Both can be both at the right time and place and under the right circumstances.

    Perhaps if you have two people who have reached self-actualization they may be more in balance and centered. They may let go of trying to control another person, the circumstances, or outcome.

    Extroverts run the show in this world and Introverts are usually dominated by those extroverts. You can see that every where.
     
  16. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    Yes, it's a book. Green Eggs and Ham is also a book, but it's not a valid observation on the human condition. And if everyone has these traits you're labelling feminine and masculine, why are you labelling them that way? Why would they just be human traits, without the gender assignment?

    Again, then, I challenge you to question your use of the terms masculine and feminine. If lots of men have 'feminine' traits, then the traits aren't really feminine, are they?

    You should probably search back and find the thread we had on the Myers-Briggs personality test. And reading your posts, I think I begin to understand why some people were so hostile to the tests. They're over-simplified, fun little games, and I don't think there's anything wrong with taking them and then pulling anything useful out of the results. But you can't use them to determine your entire world view, and you sure as hell can't (or at least, shouldn't) use some even more simplistic colour coding nonsense. If you want to call the well established trait of ambition "red", go for it, but don't pretend it gives you any more insight into humanity than you'd have if you just called it ambition.

    Okay, similar nonsense, but the final sentence? I really don't think you understand introversion properly, if you're thinking of it in terms of submissiveness. I'm a very strong introvert. Do you find me submissive?
     
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  17. Hubardo

    Hubardo Contributor Contributor

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    Well... that can come off as rude. One gay person doesn't represent all gay people. Just how one straight person doesn't represent all straight people. Also, a gay black man and an undocumented lesbian Latina woman are both homosexuals but can't possibly represent homosexual-ness, nor black-ness, nor Latina-ness, nor undocumented-ness. However, each can draw from those aspects of their identity for experience and insight. Identity is pretty complicated!
     
  18. Mattiemae

    Mattiemae Member

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    Whoever you are, there just tools I felt people could use to make fictional characters. Which seems you have an issue with anyone that may find a disagreement with what if you're trying to point out. I don't base my entire life on these things, I use them as tools like many people do to develop characters.

    Frankly I find you kind of rude. If you personally want to know I believe in everyone is unique and can't be put in a box. No I don't understand Introversion properly I am one. lol I don't understand a lot of things because I've studied most of my life, been around psychology forever in a a day, and brought up by them, studied various religions, and philosophies globally. Technically if you want me to be blatant about it, yes, the rich people make these niches and try to define people, copy write, manipulate people's emotions, feelings, thoughts, and people buy into it. Yes we like to brain wash people in society. I'm quite aware of the games we play in the world. I don't know why you feel so dominant yourself. Because you're showing right now you have some need to smash someone else's point of view because it triggers some kind of issue you have with another person's point of view that doesn't match yours. Excuse me for walking on your territory.
     
  19. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I'm an introvert, and EVERYBODY here can testify to the fact that I'm a shy, retiring, easily-dominated little flower. Yep.
     
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  20. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    "Female and male" here are used as labels. They could just as well be called A and B traits or Apples and Oranges traits.
     
  21. Hubardo

    Hubardo Contributor Contributor

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    -nevermind
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2015
  22. Mattiemae

    Mattiemae Member

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    My intention with that was demonstrating they may think differently period. I suppose other people read more into it.
     
  23. Mattiemae

    Mattiemae Member

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    That's the point, I've already learned in this forum anything you say will turn into a debate and used against you. lol It's so simple. Everyone has an opinion and point of view. We should all get over it. :)
     
  24. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    But my point is that there's no reason to assume that they do. Our society has stereotypes of male and female behavior. Therefore, it's not surprising that we group behaviors into buckets and label those buckets "male" and "female". But the fact that we've created those buckets doesn't mean that the buckets describe a real, innate difference.
     
  25. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    Not everything gets turned into a debate, but when people say ridiculous things... yup, I think we tend to point out that they're being ridiculous.
     
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