The art of the story

Discussion in 'General Writing' started by ScaryPen, Oct 9, 2007.

  1. Shadowfax

    Shadowfax Contributor Contributor

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    Asimov's Foundation trilogy has each of the novellas start with an extract from the Encyclopedia Galactica which outlines succinctly, in a dry academic manner, the back-story. Then the story begins, with all the drama, hooks, etc.

    What you're suggesting seems to be the opposite...
     
  2. peachalulu

    peachalulu Member Reviewer Contributor

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    You want beautiful prose never anything florid. Plus, you also want a tone that works for the mc and for the piece in general. Meaning if your story calls for more matter of fact prose put your poetic stylings off till the next project.

    I totally agree with Tenderizer to clip them and save them or copy and past the chapters and save them as a first draft so that you can see how the changes looks when you tweak them.

    I wouldn't bother with fancy fonts. I always hated in the Babysitters club when the chapter would begin with a handwritten diary entry. It was distracting and, depending on whose penmenship, hard to read.

    The whole things seems rather complicated. Are you following the example of anyone - have you seen this style done before? Also why would you need to clue people in about stuff that is optional - because to me the information is either needed or not and if it's needed it should be seamlessly woven into the exposition.
     
  3. SethLoki

    SethLoki Retired Autodidact Contributor

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    I never considered the faint font would indicate diffidence, t'was to tone down its import. With the words therein being a recap from a narrator; a seven to twelve line short that breaks the first person barrier and reinforces the story so far to any reader wanting to take up the option. I figured as-well that if the book was put down one week at the end of a chapter and picked up an age later; a dip into the prose that precedes said chapter would get one up to speed.

    Hmmm, well yes, no hooks and drama, more word dense melodrama and an anchor


    Might be a failing of mine, but the line twixt florid and beautiful prose is grey to me. :meh: As for the tone, it's definitely a break in tone, an absolute one, a small island of respite, of breaking to something completely different, if you feel inclined, before diving back into the novel.
    The font, I can't see my original post as I type here (may be making a liar of myself) but I don't think I put fancy, just different. I'm all for readable fonts.
    I'm not so much following any examples as I've not seen this format before; if it's born of anything it'll be a mash up of Goethe's Faust, the chorus singing you see in the film Little Shop of Horrors and something like 'Last week on Breaking Bad...'

    Of course all the above could be academic; the consensus I'm getting alas is to 'kill my darlings'. I definitely couldn't do that by way of delete or the throwing of a scrunched ball into a wastebasket; maybe I should create some form of purgatory till I'm at death's door then, with my dying scribbles, doodle them into the opus 'Darlings' Heaven'. Format it seems, and likely for good reason, ought to be adhered to. I really don't think I sold the idea too well mind with the self-deprecating words I used to put it forward.
     
  4. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    I don't permanently delete my darlings, either. I copy them into a new document and shed a tear over them each time I see it.
     
  5. Charlemagne Swift

    Charlemagne Swift New Member

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    Hello,

    When I write my stories, I spend ages on trying to have everything make perfect sense, but whenever I do, by the time I finish writing the entire scene from start to finish, it is barely a single a4 page. Does any one have an idea on how I could improve?
     
  6. Earp

    Earp Contributor Contributor

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    I'm not sure why you think your scene should be longer?
     
  7. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    If you feel your scenes are overly brief (on the whole, which seems to be what you are saying) I would look to the content of the scene. Do your scenes consist only of what is happening? Are you giving any "head room" to your characters? Are we learning about their inner selves or are we only getting on-the-spot actions, reaction, and emotions?
     
  8. Aaron Smith

    Aaron Smith Banned Contributor

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    **!!With this simple fix you can increase your length!!**

    CLICK HERE FOR SUPER QUICK SOLUTION: bit.ly/increaseyolength

    ---

    I think richness is a lot more important than word count. Take Anthony Doerr, for example. In his Pulitzer winning work All the Light We Cannot See he utilized short chapters to great effect. Some of his scenes were barely two hundred words.

    Are you asking the right question? Do you think your chapters need to be longer or are you influenced by pre-conceived notions of the writing community?



    --.
     
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  9. Ex Leper

    Ex Leper Banned

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    I struggled with scene length for ages, because I thought that I had an idea of what made up a scene. But, like Aaron Smith says, they were pre-conceived notions of the writing community. Once I realised this my writing took off and is now more confident and very much my own style.
     
  10. peachalulu

    peachalulu Member Reviewer Contributor

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    Could depend on the show to tell ratio. If I'm doing a scene in exposition I can zip through it pretty fast. Also if there's not a lot of dialogue it can be pretty short. All depends on your goals for the scene. As long as your meeting them and the details are sound length doesn't matter.
     
  11. Charlemagne Swift

    Charlemagne Swift New Member

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    I agree with what you are saying, but how can I show (from a first person view) what they see, what they feel and why they are having that reaction? Most people don't live their lives thinking about their individual aspects.
     
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  12. Shadowfax

    Shadowfax Contributor Contributor

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    I was going to suggest reading more...but I see from your other posts that you've been a voracious reader...I'd still suggest reading more; but this time try to analyse how the author has done things. Like how to drag the scene out beyond a single A4 sheet.

    Alternatively, complete the requirements that entitle you to post work, and then post one of your A4 sheets and ask us to re-write it, but longer.

    Incidentally, one of the requirements is to complete 2 critiques; the chief benefit of this is that you're compelled (if it's a genuine critique, and not just "I like/hate this") to read the piece critically, which means looking at anything and everything...plot, style, SPAG, pacing...so it actually benefits you - the critique - more than the author.
     
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  13. Selbbin

    Selbbin The Moderating Cat Staff Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    Increase the font size and use double space. It'll be two A4 pages in no time!
     
  14. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Actually I don't agree. I think most people live their lives CONSTANTLY thinking about their individual aspects.

    No, they don't think "I am walking to the store. I am buying milk at the store. I am walking home from the store." That's just telling what happened and while it's efficient, it's also boring and unengaging. If you read a story filled with that kind of thing, you're going to quit pretty soon.

    Going to the store is probably a boring topic, but so is a swordfight if it's written the same way. "I swung at him and missed. He swung at me and hit my shield. I stepped back and took another swipe. This time I drew blood. He swung at me and hit my arm." This is even more boring if it comes at the start of a piece, and we neither know nor care anything about the two swipers at work here.

    What makes a story work is what the characters are thinking or feeling as they walk to the store, or swipe at each other with swords.

    If you're walking to the store (as I just was, so it's fresh in my mind), you leave the house, remember to tell your absentminded but diligent husband not to lock the door behind you, because you aren't taking your key. It's just a quick run. You look up at the gathering clouds and wonder if it's going to rain before you get home, and wonder if you should go back for an umbrella. No, what the hell. I don't melt in the rain. You pass old Mr Johnson who is wearing his usual deerstalker cap, working his garden next door, and you think— oh shit, no. You increase your pace to power-walking speed. You wave to him, of course, but you sure as hell don't want to get sucked into in a long yapping session about aphids on roses just now. You're in the middle of editing a chapter, and you can't wait to get back home with the damn milk. You don't want to lose your writing momentum.

    One of your main characters has just come across as standoffish to your latest beta reader. It was upsetting to hear about this flaw, but you're determined to fix it. The character is shy, not standoffish. In fact, he's a kind man, but that's not how he appears at the moment. You don't want to mess up the plot, but—aha! maybe if he tells his hostess how skilled he thinks she is, because of the fine dinner she's just served him, it'll make him look more empathetic than he—woops! I've got a main road to cross here, and it's BUSY. Better forget about my character and plot for a minute, unless I want to end up a splot...

    ............

    ...and etc. Now obviously you're not going to write all that boring stuff in a story, but this is the sort of thing you should get in tune with. What is going on in your character's head at any given time? You can write it all out in a rambling fashion, because nobody is going to see your unfinished, unedited first draft (right?) and then go back later on and prune off the bits that you don't really need. But if you get in the habit of thinking this way as you write, you'll find it much easier to communicate a character's personality. Personality is what grabs a reader's attention. Not: I went to the store. The street was busy and I had to wait to cross it. I bought milk and came home again.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2016
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  15. Sack-a-Doo!

    Sack-a-Doo! Contributor Contributor

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    Are you simply describing events or showing character attitudes toward those events?
     
  16. Charlemagne Swift

    Charlemagne Swift New Member

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    When I write scenes, its only what the character sees, I struggle to display other's emotions.
    Thank you for writing this, this gives me a new idea on how to write my story. When I have completed all the requirements, I shall post an excerpt for you to critique.
     
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  17. Aaron Smith

    Aaron Smith Banned Contributor

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    Again, I think you are asking the wrong question.

    If your intention is to write a multi-faceted symphony of characters, first person is the not the right narrative, unless you alternate between chapters. With first person, you can only be so objective before you entirely drag the reader out of the character's head. Otherwise you are limited the narrator's perspective. The narrator may be able to see the sadness on someone's face, but he can only imagine what they feel based on that bias.
    Whereas a third-person omniscient can provide two unrestricted viewpoints.
     
  18. Sack-a-Doo!

    Sack-a-Doo! Contributor Contributor

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    Well, technically, if you're writing in first person (I seem to remember you saying that's the case) your 1st person character can't accurately describe the emotions of others. Instead, they'd describe what they saw and interpret what they thought the other character was feeling: He shuffled along, his face drooping like he'd lost his last friend... She stormed across the room and flung fired her pie at my face...

    Another thing you can put in is attitude: I didn't think much of the way she smiled at him. In fact, I'd have punched her lights out if he hadn't been there.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2016
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  19. Justin Rocket 2

    Justin Rocket 2 Contributor Contributor

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    I suffer from the same problem.

    I've found, to some degree, that writing very short scenes the first time around is okay. Let me rephrase that to emphasize that while I find them okay, I do not feel them okay. I feel terribly anxious about them. At my best (I'm not always at my best, but when I am), one of my strengths is describing a scene very succinctly (establishing a mood as well as setting the stage for the action). One of my weaknesses is creating plot. So, I can write short scenes and think I messed up (and failed to establish what needs to be done plot-wise), when it is just that I wrote a scene well.

    Remember that, while you can include only what the character sees, what they see will be influenced by how they feel. The difference between "dashing away" and "fleeing" (in both cases to describe how someone runs away from something) or "laughed" vs. "chuckled" is all about how actions are perceived rather than about the facts of the event.

    Don't forget subtext. Most new authors write the discussion as it is spoken. Most good authors write the discussion as it is not spoken. To clarify, a married couple may have a discussion about leaving clothes on the bed in the morning (as they take clothes from the closet to get dressed for work and decide not to wear various things, but leave the clothes on the bed instead of returning them to the closet), when what they are _really_ talking about is how each of the two spouses feels unappreciated by the other spouse. So, you have to let the reader know what is really going on in the dialogue, including feelings, without telling.

    Your first person narrator is probably unreliable. Other people may have to tell him stuff. For example, your first person and his spouse have been terribly busy of late. But, they finally get a chance to go to the grocery store. They run into a colleague there. During the small talk, the spouse offers both of you to babysit the colleague's kids the following Saturday. Your first person thinks that they don't have time for that, but your first person says nothing (though he thinks that his spouse is inconsiderate of all the work your first person has been doing). After the colleague leaves, your spouse mentions to the first person how stressed the colleague looks, the colleague may have looked like they'd been recently crying (but the first person didn't notice it). Your spouse mentions that they heard through other channels that the colleague's spouse was recently diagnosed with cancer.
     
  20. Nidhogg

    Nidhogg Member

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    For camp NaNo this year I've decided to work on fleshing out a story idea that I've had for a couple of months. I thought that the idea sounded pretty original at the time, and have been excited to start giving writing a go. However, I very recently found out that the idea I had has already been done, and that it is considered an international bestselling series.

    My original premise was "a band of orcs set off on a journey, opposed by both humans and other orcs alike. The story aims to show a fantasy setting from the 'evil' perspective, and in doing so give diversity and development to a typically one-dimensional race."

    The series I found out about is the Orcs: First Blood series by Stan Nicholls. If you're wondering what the premise of his series is, basically just read my premise again.

    Finding this out has left me pretty disheartened, and wondering if I should continue writing my story. I'm refraining from reading the Orcs series to compare ideas, partially because I don't want to end up taking more ideas from the author, and partially because I haven't seen many good reviews for it.

    Should I keep going and hope they are distinct enough for it to be not considered too similar, or should I take the time to rework the initial idea?

    Minor edit: I've started reading the first book in the series against my better judgement. I should've heeded those low reviews. Part of my now wants to try and write my own story out of spite for this one.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2016
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  21. Cnayur

    Cnayur Member

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    This one is tough to answer. My heart says that no two writers are alike and that old material tackled anew will bring new emotions, new insights, and new story beats to the premise if that writer's any good. The premise may be similar, but I guess the plot won't be.

    On the other hand, there's my brain saying, ooohh, but people will talk. They'll call you a rip-off, a cheat, derivative... I really don't know. I've had a similar problem a couple years ago. Ever since, I've been keeping that idea (and the first 12000 words already written) hidden away in my Folder of Shame.
     
  22. halisme

    halisme Contributor Contributor

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    You write it better with different characters. Problem solved. Nothing is that original in the anymore.
     
  23. Gawler

    Gawler Senior Member

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    Write it. Unless you are doing it almost word for word you will have a different feel and perspective in your own style. If everyone stopped writing a story because their premise had already been done then there would be a LOT less romantic novels published.
     
  24. Sack-a-Doo!

    Sack-a-Doo! Contributor Contributor

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    This is tricky.

    Orcs were creations of J.R.R. Tolkien and were then popularized by World of Warcraft. I don't know if Blizzard is paying royalties to the Tolkien estate, but it's a definite possibility. And I don't know if the whole 'orcs as public domain property' argument is valid or not.

    The series you mentioned may be fan fiction or a commissioned work, either of which makes it decidedly unoriginal. If you wanna write your story as-is, I'd look into where you stand on this.

    On the other hand, if you were to change the orcs to some other creature that isn't already a part of popular fiction/games, you wouldn't have to deal with all this. You may even come up with a critter that gets everyone else borrowing from you.
     
  25. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    I'd keep the big idea, change the details.

    You can follow a band of "evil" characters without them being orcs, right?
     

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