Is a Creative Writing Honours Degree Really Worth It?

Discussion in 'Traditional Publishing' started by Seren, Dec 6, 2016.

?

Should I go to university?

  1. Yes

    6 vote(s)
    54.5%
  2. No

    5 vote(s)
    45.5%
  1. psychotick

    psychotick Contributor Contributor

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    Hi,

    Actually to be completely fair to a creative writing course, I would say that it may be of use in the jobs market. Just not so much in helping you to become a successful novelist etc. I can see three distinct career paths leading from it. The first as I said previously is in teaching English, but if you want to take this path you need to take some hard core Eng Lit papers as well, and then depending on the regs of your country, maybe do a post grad teaching qual.

    Journalism is also a viable career path, but you'll probably have to do a post grad journalism course as well.

    But the one that's most likely to give you a solid career is in my view, advertising. If you can write good copy for adds etc, you should be able to get your foot in the door - but you should probably include some marketing papers in your course.

    As a sort of aside, and I'm not sure how relevant it is, I read a lot of golden age sci fi and it will surprise you how many of the most successful authors from that time were actually newspaper men. Clifford Simak, Samuel Clemens, and more recently Piers Anthony. Similarly HG Wells, JRR Tolkein and CS Lewis were all teachers and professors. And Salman Rushdie, Dorothy Sayers and Joseph Heller were all copywriters first.

    The point is as Piers Anthony puts it, every novelist needs a source of steady income outside of their writing. (He famously made a deal with his wife to support him when he started writing full time!) An in my view if you head down one of these sorts of career paths, you can keep your hand in writing while also earning an income and working on your books.

    Cheers, Greg.
     
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  2. NigeTheHat

    NigeTheHat Contributor Contributor

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    ^^ that. In direct response copy, at least, a good understanding of story structure and how to make a sentence flow will mean you can kick the arse of most of your competition, at least at the junior level. You might need to adapt your style, depending on the kind of stuff you like to write; good ads channel Jim Butcher far more than James Joyce.

    Not that you need a creative writing degree for that, of course - I studied maths and I do just fine. By far the most useful thing for me from my university experience was the people I met when I was there. I'm still in touch with most of them ten years after leaving, and I've founded two businesses with them. I think I could have been studying anything and ended up in a broadly similar position to where I am now, but I'm damned if I know what I'd be doing just now if I never went at all.
     
  3. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    Another vote for completing a degree in another subject. It'll give you a niche area of expertise which will inform your writing. IMO writing qualifications are useless if your aim is to be more attractive to agents/editors. Their only value is in helping make you a more confident writer.
     
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  4. matwoolf

    matwoolf Banned Contributor

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    I think the world is quite snobby about CW degrees which does perhaps, and fortunately, provide ready audience for written parody of creative writing professors, soybean poets and our other 'heroes' of the scene.

    This is one avenue to consider.

    Also, if any consolation, my former employer discarded every application that was not Oxbridge, thereby reduced sift workload from 2000 applicants to 20 at a stroke of the keyboard.

    ...

    so..if I had my time again...I would go to Public School, some kind of scholarship, aged eight when I was at my peak.
     
  5. terobi

    terobi Senior Member

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    Tory Party HQ was it?
     
  6. matwoolf

    matwoolf Banned Contributor

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    Roundabouts..
     
  7. Seren

    Seren Writeaholic

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    Don't worry about the post length @Carly Berg because your opinion is very useful. As are the rest of them. So, I've now come to the conclusion that I should only take the creative writing degree if I decide that in my heart, that is what I'd like to do regardless of what it does for me. It will probably do what other, cheaper methods will do. I'm just going to let the offer sit in my UCAS Track until the deadline comes (in May) for me to accept or decline, but right now I'm thinking that I probably won't go. In my heart, I'd like to have a year to myself, get a part-time job and write. However, when I first considered that as an option, that was as far ahead as I looked. I think I'll also spend that year deciding on my next step (instead of letting that be my next step). Maybe I'll like my part-time retail job (if I get one) so much that I'll take it up full-time and slowly progress over the years. Maybe I won't get a job, or I'll hate it, and so I'll try to get an apprenticeship.

    I think I'm looking at my future more realistically now, instead of saying, "If I don't go to university I'll just get a part-time job in a bookstore and write - and that will fund my life forever." Obviously, as many of you have mentioned, I could just pick a different degree that would give me better job prospects. But I don't think I'd enjoy them, so I'm either going to do the creative writing degree or not go to university at all. Thank you, anyway, for drawing my attention to the fact that they'd give me a lot of knowledge in a different field that I could then use in my writing.
     
  8. matwoolf

    matwoolf Banned Contributor

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    English degree..

    ?
     
  9. Seren

    Seren Writeaholic

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    Even an English degree is very different to a Creative Writing degree, so I still don't think I'd want to do that. I take it at A-Level now, but I don't think I could cope with another three years.
     
  10. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    TBH its not a bad plan to put it off until you're sure - you can always go as a mature student later if you change your mind.

    One thing I would say is that although its possible to fund your life by writing, for every person that gets the multi thousand 3 book deal there are lots more that don't, so my suggestion would be that if you aren't going to uni you get a full time job and stash as much cash away as possible. (its worth learning to type properly, and up your computer literacy as that opens the door to the more highly paid admin roles which are often available as a temp, and will benefit your writing)

    The other thing once you've got some cash in the bank is to take a couple of years to travel - which again will give you valuable background for writing.
     
  11. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    A good science is probably the most useful for writing, and then specific humanities like law or history. Something more broad like English or Classics... not so much.
     
  12. terobi

    terobi Senior Member

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    It's also worth thinking about the other things universities can do for you other than just the course itself. University writing societies, public lectures and guest speakers, etc. which are generally open to you regardless of what subject you're studying.
     
  13. matwoolf

    matwoolf Banned Contributor

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    No, I agree an English degree is best.

    And I advise against 'Travelling,' probably get an upset tummy.

    Remember, science degrees are for 'Scientists' - not really proper writer people, hobby types mainly.
     
  14. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    I have two science degrees and they've been much more useful to my writing than my English Lit and Classics A levels :D
     
  15. matwoolf

    matwoolf Banned Contributor

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    I have a Philosophy degree and a Physics O level.

    I think I win this one, hands down, loser

    ;)
     
  16. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    Have you ever written sci-fi using your physics knowledge?

    I'm no good at physics - maths lets me down - but I'd be so tempted to write sci-fi if I was better at it. I find it fascinating.
     
  17. terobi

    terobi Senior Member

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    I'm a political theory postgraduate - I can tell you right now that the way I view characters, motivations and worldbuilding has completely changed in the years I've been looking obscenely deeply into the various claims and theories.
     
  18. Integer

    Integer Member

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    The place you go to is important too. Very important.

    I was the first person to go to university in my family. I literally had no idea and thought they were all the same. Despite the fact I had the grades to go somewhere better, in the end I went to a Post '92 to do Psychology (like a community college that turned into a university - for non U.K. people) because it was near my girlfriend and they said in the open day that they were a great university.

    Well it was, and continues to be, a terrible 'university' that offered a terrible course with a crappy student experience. I regret going there. I work in Education now and there are some jobs and employers that are simply closed to me because of where I got my degree.

    I've worked in decent grad schools doing admissions where they have just thrown applications from applicants from lower ranked universities in the reject pile no matter what grade they got.

    I don't want to talk down the place I work but I just look at these kids, many who are just as clueless about higher education as I was, taking on £10k+ per year loans to do drama and dance and writing and media, and wonder how much they will regret it when they are in their 40s and still having their salary garnished to pay it back.
     
  19. Seren

    Seren Writeaholic

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    Interesting. I knew prestigious universities such as Oxford and Cambridge could look good and sway job applications, but I didn't realise some people are just completely disregarded because of where they went. I'd say this particular university is nice but nothing special. Lots of people who've studied there really liked it - so it doesn't have a reputation among employers for being terrible, I shouldn't think - but it holds no prestige.
     
  20. matwoolf

    matwoolf Banned Contributor

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    Still, plenty of these polytechnic guys run major utilities and such - see the puffed up CVs over on Linkedin.
     
  21. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    You have to take everything Matt says with a big pinch of salt. That said Russel group (Birmingham, Bristol, Cambridge, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Imperial College London, Leeds, Liverpool, London School of Economics, Manchester, Newcastle, Nottingham, Oxford, Sheffield, Southampton, University College London and Warwick) universities generally hold more sway if you are going for very prestigious jobs , or going for jobs in the university sector , but its not the be all.

    I went to Crewe and Alsager (now part of Man Met) for my first degree , and Birkbeck UL for my masters and it never did me any harm.
     
  22. pamedria

    pamedria Member

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    Yes, the university and accreditation does matter quite a lot of the time. I have only ever seen one job advertised which states the university must be a RG. When I was looking at creative writing, I considered English and Creative Writing at Nottingham uni, which is a Russel group. I linked the course in. It looks to have improved greatly in the last few years. I remember the criteria and stats were very unimpressive, but now it looks good...
    http://unistats.direct.gov.uk/Subjects/Overview/10007154FT-Q3W8
     
  23. matwoolf

    matwoolf Banned Contributor

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    I wasn't being particularly cynical, it was a CV on Linkedin, we crossed paths by accident...

    1990 4 GCSEs Burton Agnes CC, incl Maths & Religious Studies
    1991 Assistant Manager, Rumbelows, Ipswich
    1993 February, Manager Blockbusters
    1994 Sales negotiator Blockbuster
    1996 Sales Negotiator, Southern Water (East)
    1998 Head Assistant Negotiator, Southern Water (East)
    2000 Strategic Director (Ops) Southern Water
    2001 Director Ops, Southern Water
    2002 Director Managing (Executive) Southern Water
    2004 Executive Chief Director, Southern Water
    2007 Chief Director Manager Performance & Strategy, Eastern Water
    2009 Eastern Water, Head, Director (Ops) Divisional
    2014 Vice-President, NPower Northern Regional Alliance
    2016 Executive Vice Chief President, Ocean West.

    Hobbies: model railway/balloon modelling
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2016
  24. Robert Musil

    Robert Musil Comparativist Contributor

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    Oh, I wouldn't let that stop you. Math* was always my worst subject, by far, but I love both reading and writing sci-fi. I'd say, actually, that sci-fi rewards having just enough knowledge to be dangerous, but not too much--if you have enough trivial or factoid-type knowledge to visualize some really far-out possibilities, but not so much that you spend all your time thinking "well that would never work because tachyons actually can't do that", that's the sweet spot you want to hit, IMHO.

    *Unrelated, but I've always wondered why there's more than one math in British-English...
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2016
  25. Integer

    Integer Member

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    It matters to the extent that having a degree matters at all.

    If you are going for a job where the employer really cares about you being a graduate then they are going to have at least some interest in the institution you went to.

    Some HR departments will quite literally put the CVs where people have graduated from Southampton in one pile, and Southampton Solent in the other. That doesn't mean that people with degrees from Solent don't do well of course. The right attitude is the main ingredient to success (not always easy to maintain it if 80% of your classmates arrived through Clearing though).
     

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