Switching between close and distant 3rd

By Xoic · Apr 18, 2020 · ·
  1. I decided to look deeper into POV. Was thinking about looking for a good book that covers it, but decided first to see what I can find on the net. After seeing a succession of typical shallow web articles telling me nothing I don't already know, I ran across what seems to be a really decent site called NovelWritingHelp.com.

    They have a bunch of articles relating to POV. On one called Third Person Narrative Made Easy I ran across confirmation of something I had said in an earlier post, about switching between a 'cinematic' external viewpoint and going inside the character's head. At the time I was speaking entirely from intuition, or maybe I've seen it enough in books that I understood but couldn't remember any examples, so it was mostly a strong suspicion. Here's what the article says on the subject:

    • At the start of the scene, the camera is positioned some distance away from where the action is about to take place. In filmmaking, this is called the establishing shot.
    • Next, you cut to a much closer view of the scene as it’s about to unfold – one which includes the viewpoint character in the frame. We’re still seeing the character from the outside at this point.
    • Finally (and this is where the movie analogy breaks down), the camera enters the viewpoint character’s head and their eyes become the lens. More than that, the camera not only sees what the viewpoint character sees; it smells what they smell, tastes what they taste and hears their thoughts.

    It also says that it's typical to use the external POV mostly just for establishing shots—the beginning of a new scene. I think I kept switching back and forth in my excerpt from the Beastseekers (well, on those rare occasions when I wasn't completely in external). I also want to look through some 3rd person novels by actual real writers now and see how they handle it.

    Also, it was gratifying to see they use a lot of filmmaking metaphors. It seems to be my preferred way to think about it.
    PiP, LostArtist, Bluefire and 2 others like this.

Comments

  1. Malisky
    Indeed, the establishing shot is mostly used in the beginning of a scene, with some exceptions of course. I mean you can begin with a close up or whatever shot, as long as some guidance in the setting is soon after served in order to let the audience understand the topography, which is a very important aspect in film making. You can go back and forth with the establishing shots as they serve other narrative or aesthetic purposes as well. You can actually do whatever you want with them, just as long as you've got a clear sense of why you are doing what you are doing and how well it's communicated to the viewer.

    But yes, things get much clearer when you introduce a setting first. The viewer understands the topography, the time (could be even chronology), the weather, the conditions, circumstances, etc, etc, which places him/her there and so the MC's (or whichever character you introduce first) POV is easier to connect to. This applies to writing as well, might I point out especially in writing, since you got no visuals at all whatsoever unless the writer hints at them. A good strategy is to begin with the setting in writing, which is fairly common and understandably so.

    For dramatic effect, or a multitude of other reasons (might as well be narrative ones) the writer or director, might start with close ups and slowly peel out to the whole picture.

    Furthermore, another aspect to keep in mind, in film-making, is the size of the character in the frame, meaning the "how far" is the camera set and at which angle (perspective). Just how small is he is the frame? Does he look like an ant? Is he indistinguishable in comparison to others?

    I love far-off, establishing shots. The give a more cinematic feel to a movie.
      Steve Rivers and Xoic like this.
  2. Xoic
    Thanks Malisky. That writer explained things in ways that make a lot of sense to me, but I don't agree with all of it. And some I need to understand better before I can decide what I believe. One thing I'm particularly curious about is this—he said that, aside from opening some scenes with an establishing shot you can also sometimes close with one as well, for example 'pulling away', as opposed to pulling in at the beginning. That all sounds fine to me, but he said in any event the thing you always want to do is remain close to the character (inside their skin as he puts it) from the time you first go in close until the end of the scene. That one I'm not sure I agree with. It seems there could be reasons to pull away in the middle of a scene to give some important bit of information.

    I'm glad you said what you did about being able to do what you want with the 'psychic distance' (as Gardner calls it), as long as you have some reason. That sounds right to me, but then I still have more to learn about it, especially from actual experience writing. I had never thought before about only the beginning and end of a scene being appropriate times to pull out from the character. But when he said that, something in me rebelled against it. Not sure if it's just me wanting to be free to do whatever I want, but I need to think about it, and as I said I want to find examples of how authors have used it.

    The writer claims that there's no equivalent in movies of a 'close shot' (and of course he's right in that you can't experience the character's inner thoughts and feelings directly), but it seems to me there is somewhat of a parallel, in those shots that are literally close to the character, but you can see him or her on camera. The camera stays close to them while they're the important element in the scene, but can cut away to show important things like a truck rapidly approaching that's about to hit them. Or something like that could be shown in the background behind the character.

    Well, I'm just thinking out loud here really, and starting to ramble. It's getting late and I need to get to bed before I just start babbling gibberish... but this is all good stuff to think about.
      Steve Rivers and Malisky like this.
  3. Steve Rivers
    I'm along the same lines Xoic, I find it easier to treat my plotting, structure and way I construct scenes in terms of thinking about it cinematically. I act it out in my head first, commit the basics to paper, then try and "literacize" around it. Setting a basic establishing shot is good, but I also find adding what I call "sprinkles" a great way to add in extra detail without overloading an establishing shot at the start of each chapter/scene. Starting off every scene the same way with a blurb about the surroundings can get repetitive for me.

    In my editing for a friend of mine, she would often info dump, either about something in the scene or the scene itself. I told her to take the entire info dump, break it down into bullet points, then add single lines of description from that info dump along various points around the dialogue or actions depending/as when things naturally point to certain things. That way, the scene can start out with a basic idea of surroundings, but it gets more and more detailed as the scene/chapter goes on; and by the very end, by sprinkling it in here and there in small chunks that naturally fit the scene, you've imparted an entire info dump on the reader under the carpet, so to speak. "Sprinkling" I find is a great way to have your cake and eat it, because it does the job of the camera, whilst also helping you see or notice things with the character and making you feel part of their experience.
      Xoic likes this.
  4. Xoic
    Sprinkles!!
    [​IMG]

    I like that concept. And yeah, I wouldn't start every scene with an establishing shot, only the ones that call for it. Thanks.
      Steve Rivers likes this.
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