I'm sorry to say that I think that you only speak about a superficial and solely logical way of mastering this language. I refer to the emotional side of mastering it. Can you really feel the language if you are second language English speaker?
You mean like if you write a word and you are not sure if it's the right word to describe what you really meant, if it has that deeper meaning you really meant to say?
English is a language spoken all over the world, and there are words and phrases in it that are not necessarily understood in different places the same way. The emotional flavors of words can be considerably different from place to place, and this often causes misunderstandings between people who are, at least nominally, speaking the same language. I grew up in Canada and moved to the USA when I was 35. When I got here and joined my partner's business, I used to get a little angry with him often because I thought he was being rude to me. He'd say things like this: "You need to do such-and-such." To me, that sounded like the kind of order a superior gives an inferior. But he didn't mean it that way. He was simply asking me to do such-and-such. In Canada, we would have said it this way: "Would you please do such-and-such?" This is more polite, to my way of thinking. But Americans almost never talk this way (at least here in Southern California). Things were even worse when I went to Australia, when a friend there invited me to have a "flutter on the gee-gees." I had no idea at all what he was talking about. It turns out he meant betting on horse races. That's a phrase I never heard in Canada, though. All this is to make the point that English is not the same everywhere it's spoken, and native English speakers from different places can still have a hard time properly understanding each other.
If someone is fluent in a language, it doesn't really matter if it is their first language or not. Or rather than being fluent, let's say mastering the language. At a minimum, you need to be able to think in the language, as opposed to thinking in another language and translating. Also, you need to understand the shades of meaning for different words, as in your example. It isn't easy. I know many native-born speakers of English who are not masters of it, as I'm sure you know many native speakers of German who are equally limited.
There is some cultural meaning I guess like aphorisms, sayings, and proverbs. Sometimes people think in metaphores more easily in one language when they say something in a language not their own. I recommend you think that the learning process of english as an investment. You'll learn culture just by meeting people who go to their jobs, do hobbies, and so on.
ditto all of that... being 'fluent' in an additional language does not always mean one is equal to those born to speak it... that said, look at how many aspiring writers we see on sites like this, who were born to speak english and still don't know how to use many words properly... the same applies to people everywhere... some are masters of their own tongue and many others fall far short... while an extremely rare few can master other languages in addition to their own...
@Bimber Yes, I am referring to such ‚deeper meaning‘. I think that by simply translating one word it is impossible to express its meaning in total due to different socio-historic backgrounds of people of different languages. Let’s take Shakespeare’s love poems as an example. ‘Love’ is simply translated by ‘Liebe’ and of course we all do know this universal feeling. However, there are subtleties of language that distinguish our understanding of words. For instance, different images, proverbs or traditions (historically grown!) are linked to ‘love’. When an Englishman reads one of Shakespeare’s love poems, the allusions and emotions created by his subconsciousness are probably closer to what Shakespeare truly felt and associated with his own lines than any understanding of somebody who learned a foreign language originally. Indisputably, one can learn the various layers of meaning of a language intellectually. Nevertheless, I wonder whether this is just a superficial understanding of a language, since early socialization with a certain language is of real importance and indispensable to truly mastering a language. @minstrel Thanks a lot for your example. When watching How I Met Your Mother, I always wondered why the Canadians were portrayed as the sissies of North America ;D Of course you are right. But don’t you think that despite the differences there is some common structure engraved in the English language which is shared by all (or most) English-speaking people? One reason why I love English is its clarity and directness. It is probably no coincidence that scientific text in English are oftentimes clearly structured and elegant (in comparison), whereas German texts are mostly a series of run-on sentences and empty phrases (Kant anyone? I hate this guy for having influenced thousands of wannabes trying to imitate his style, torturing me).
Its something i guess all none native speakers go through, try to observe how others do use some words, be it in real life (if you have contacts that are native in that language), from forums/chatrooms, movies and books. Basically watch and learn and try to understand why they used that word in particular. I often get that feeling as you when i write, as am not sure if some word paints the color i want the picture to have, but being observant helps, with time to get to understand some words better. For example you see a beautiful picture, but to use beautiful to describe it is'nt it, so try and think about these words: dazzling, gorgeous, stunning, wonderful, alluring, superb, breath-taking, lovely and delightful. Dont look at their meaning but try and understand the feeling of each word.
I wondered quite a bit about this myself before I made the decision to write in English. In the beginning, it was terrifying and I used a lot of placeholder words in my native language. Then, as I read more and more in English and switched off subtitles to English tv series and movies whenever I could, I noticed I started to get that feeling for words. Granted, I might never be as sensitive to different meanings of a word as a native speaker might, but the feeling is most definitely there. My 'best friend' as a writer is my thesaurus. If I can't find the word with the right feeling, I'll look at the synonyms to find one that fits better.
Well, it may not feel the same, but in English emotion is really in the tone and feel of it, not the word itself. The word love for example can have many different kinds of meanings as well. It is hard to get used to as I can imagine, but it is possible.
In some ways yes, but in many ways, no. That's why it is such a difficult language for people to "master." As an American that has lived all over the country, as well as in Europe, I can tell you that it's hard for us to understand each other a lot of the time. Countless dialects and accents of native speakers make it extremely difficult to understand people outside of your region at times. I grew up in the south and moved around the country. I can't tell you how many times I used a phrase common to me that someone asked me to define what I meant, and vice versa. And that doesn't even come close to the misunderstandings between my American friends and my English/UK friends. It's laughable how different the language can be in different areas. And frankly, I know Americans that have never attempted to speak anything other than English, and they still don't know how to speak "correctly." Structure Schmucture. Every language has its own colloquialisms, slang, and common grammatical butcherings by its speakers. The English people learn in school is not the English that is spoken, pretty much anywhere. It's a form of it. Just as the Spanish my friends learned in school isn't anywhere close to the Spanish spoken on the streets of Texas, where I live. You learn the gist of it through whatever means (classroom instruction, language software, etc.), then you learn the idiosyncrasies of the different regions by talking to the locals and asking them to really explain their meaning in terms you can understand. Many English words have a bunch of different meanings. It really boils down to context. Sometimes the differences are subtle and hard for non-native speakers to pick up on. And some words aren't easily translatable to other languages, which makes it harder for people of that language to learn it in English. I actually ran into that problem when learning Russian. They have the same problem. Again, the best way to learn the emotion or feeling behind a particular word is not necessarily to learn it in the word itself, but in how the word is used in relation to the other words around it. And the best way to do that is to have someone sit down and explain it to you in terms you can understand.
I totally agree with this. I've said it before, while critiquing a piece of writing in the Workshop. If you can't actually think in English, you'll never be able to write anything good in it. A translation may be technically correct, but it'll never as 'good' as it was in the original language. Even if you've mastered both languages, and you're doing the translation yourself, you'll end up writing two similar, but at the same time, different stories.
Arthur, English is my native language and I have studied, and learned to one degree or another of success, several other languages. I have always been impressed, warmed even, by the sweet, subtle nuances that each language conveys within its own parameters. Some, as with your illustration of the myriad choices to convey the concept of 'indulgence', can find the most delicate variance in meaning to convey exactly the meaning desired. And quite often, in almost any language, there can be more than one, totally different meaning of the same word. (Consider the English "bow". In one instance, it can be pronounced with a long O sound and is what you might tie in a ribbon at the back of a little girl's hair. However, if pronounced as 'ow' (as if you just hit your finger - Ow!) it indicates someone bending at the waist, offering obesance to another.) Then, too, as others have already noted, there are some words which some native speakers simply fail to grasp, or have never heard before, and so they go through life with a limited competency of their own language. Having experienced just how difficult it can be to grasp a second language, I am always impressed by people such as you and Bimber who seem to have a better grasp of English than so many native speakers do. I once complained to a Russian fellow of my difficulties in learning his language. He laughed and told me something that I think would apply in this case as well. He said, "It takes a lifetime to learn it well."
I came across this very well written article on how language shapes the way we think, and advice you to read through it. The research have been done by a Professor of Psychology at Stanford University named Lera Boroditsky, and talks widely about how we perceive several aspects of the world differently depending on what language we think in. I found the article extremely interesting, and it certainly made me think more about what my words actually convey to the reader rather than thinking my own world view is the one that my readers will see. Here's the link: http://edge.org/conversation/encapsulated-universes And here's an excerpt from the article:
I guess most of you are English native speakers, but maybe you know a little bit about this as well. I am Dutch, and thus before I write I have to choose: Do I write Dutch or English? Most books I read are in English (I don't like translations), idem with films, series, tv shows, study books and syllabi. For my academics I write scientific papers in English as well. I think as of now, my Dutch writing is maybe a bit more advanced, but if I focus on English, it won't be long before it surpasses my native tongue. So my question is: should I do this? What are the advantages/disadvantages of writing English (in a non-English speaking country) - also looking at publishing. Or do you think writing different stories in different languages is the way to go? (I would rather be superb in one langues than average in two) I hope some of you have experience in this! Yours, Thomas
Bigger market (obviously) for one. Two: there are more words in the English language than in any other language.
You should write in the language that your target audience will understand better. For the stuff that you won't publish, do whatever you want. Your writing will be limited by your language skill, but you'll get to practise both at the same time, I suppose. I just wonder if it's actually possible to write much better in a language other than your native one, or if that's just personal bias influencing your perception, hah. There are more words in the English language?
More recorded nouns, yes. Your Portuguese and my Spanish are descriptive languages. Descriptive languages are light on individual nouns and heavy on adjectival and dependent clause modifiers to name things. English is the opposite. Very small differences between this thing and that thing will cause each thing to have its own distinct, single word name in English. For example: In Spanish the word llave is usually translated as key in English, but what most English speakers don't know is that llave actually means any small item, usually made of metal, designed to be turned in some way; hence, llave also means wrenches (spanners) of all kinds, and also the knobs and handles of water mains and under sinks, anything small enough to fit in the hand and meant to be turned. English has an individual name for all of those items. Add to this the fact the English is a pack-rat language. It's not the fact the English has words from many other languages - ALL LANGUAGES HAVE THIS DYNAMIC IN PLAY - it's the fact that when a new word comes into English, the old word is rarely thrown away as happens in most other languages. Instead, English keeps the old word, assigns it a more specific definition and takes the new word in as well, both stay in play. This gives us stool, which is the original word, and chair which comes from French. It gives us shirt and skirt, both from Viking languages and which originally are the same word, the two pronunciations being an artifact of the two words coming into English during separate invasions of the U.K. that were about 300 years apart and the Viking pronunciation had changed. Because of these two dynamics, English has more individual nouns than any other language of which we know.
you need to write in the language of the country where you want to have your work published and read... to do otherwise would make no sense... so, if you want to have your work published in the netherlands and read by dutch-speaking folks, write it in dutch... of course that will be a much narrower audience, thus resulting in fewer sales/smaller profits, if you're lucky enough to get it published there... writing in english will allow you to seek publication in either the UK or US [US of course has the largest market and more publishing firms], so you can do better on sales/profits... but--and it's a big one--to do that, your english has to be on a par with native english speakers' and be up to date on idioms, authentic re dialects, attitudes, behaviors, etc.... so it then comes down to what you are capable of doing well enough to have a good chance of interesting a publisher...
Well take a look at movies themselves. I've seen a lot of English spoken movies that were considered french films, but were going for the English-speaking audiences. If you want to get the Dutch audience to read your book, write in Dutch. If you want a wider audience, English is the way to go.
Like people mentioned: choose the language that fits your audience. Choose Dutch if you want to publish in the Netherlands and choose English if you want to publish in the UK or US. If you publish in English in the Netherlands I don't think it will sell much, because be honest; when was the last time you saw an English book in a Dutch bookstore? But the other way around if you write in Dutch it most likely won't get your story outside the country, because I've not seen (translations of) any Dutch books outside the Netherlands. This may not be as easy as you think. Being relatively good at a language and having the level of a native speaker are two entirely different things. I'm not saying this to be annoying or anything, but it's something I've noticed myself. For the past three years I've had half of my classes in English; I've written essays and lab reports and whatnot. Because I tend to write a lot for myself the level of my written pieces is mostly above the class' average, but when I'm trying to write a novel I notice the level of my English doesn't compare to any of the written works I've read. I'm not talking about grammar or vocabulary, it's just the way things are phrased. On the other side I also think there's a big advantage to writing in English: where the Dutch language lacks words to describe something specific or offers a word that's almost what you're looking for but not entirely it, English always seems to have the right words (but maybe that's just me). I have to admit this is something I've been/am struggling with too. I've decided to go with English for now, because I just think it's a nicer language to write in; Dutch is kind of... I don't know, but I don't really like it as a language for writing.
@Wreybies very interesting reply above. I am wondering if in the languages you speak, if they adopt webisms such as blog (short for web-log obviously) etc. In France recently the minister of culture banned his government from using the term 'silver-surfers' because it's an English term and challenged his department to come up with a catchy French version for the group of older internet users. (I don't know what they eventually settled for before anyone asks)
The French Academy has been notoriously rigorous about not condoning the use of anglicisms. La Real Academia Española has tried in vain to do the same with Spanish, but trying to control a language by committee is the very definition of a faff. You cannot do it. New World Spanish is too much in contact with English to hold back anglicisms. The Academy can decree what it wants; the real language is the living language, not the committee ratified one.
What real authority do these Academies have? Can they fine people who use anglicisms? Can they force dictionary publishers to only list officially-recognized words? Can they control what words are used in government and courts of law? Or are they just a bunch of pompous old snobs looking down their noses at the unwashed masses and sniffing disdainfully whenever anyone says "blog" or "weekend"?
