Hmmm, I think we might be arguing two slightly different things, I'm not trying to attribute the quality of a creation to boredom, the Mona Lisa isn't great because there wasn't shit to do in Italy at the time (no idea about the validity of this statement by the way) I'm simply saying peoples predisposition to create is higher when there is a need to create. Right now we have a new distribution system where one creator can near instantly share their work with the rest of the world, this in turn changes the societal standard of needing local people (resources) to do the job. On the whole, we now need less creators to do the job, because a lesser number is necessary, the market for 'creating' is saturated, leaving enough to entertain us and not creating a deficit (boredom) that would spur more creation. Sure, I'm taking a bit of a lab coat view at this, there must be many more factors that creativity, but I believe I've found a large factor in that equation.
You believe you've found a large factor based on what? Your opinion? That hardly proves any point you've tried to make. My point is that you're operating under a huge number of assumptions and making something totally complicated sound like a simple addition or subtraction problem.
I disagree - I think consumption tends to increase creativity rather than decrease it. So the more media/art/ideas we have available to us, the more media/art/ideas we'll create.
Sorry if I'm coming off a bit coarse, i'm not (actively) trying to upset you, and yes, most of this is based off my opinion, although if I linked you 5 or so internet articles on boredom causing creativity I doubt that would help. This whole idea is pretty interesting, to me, so if you would, please picture a world where everyone is content with their entertainment and are always adequately entertained. What market for writers, or painters would there be? Interesting... I could picture a model where as the population increases, along with the availability of entertainment, the creation would increase as well, that is until there is more entertainment than an individual could possibly consume in their lifetime. Of course, the average lifetimes could change and... yeah, I'm out of my depth.
I'm not upset now, nor have I been at any point during this discussion. I merely pointed out some basic fallacies and assumptions in your argument. Again, the fact of the matter is much more complex than if X number of books are available, people will stop creating. What I've been saying this whole time is you just can't make those kinds of statements and expect any sort of truth to be revealed. There are all kinds of factors at play, and I won't pretend to be some kind of expert, but I am aware that what you're talking about is reductive reasoning.
I think there's already far more entertainment than anyone could consume in their lifetime. We keep creating, though!
Well, just because it's ridiculous to compare/contrast Justin Bieber and Hanson, doesn't mean there aren't fundamental differences in music between say, now, and the 70's and 80's. I think it's safe to say that no new rock legends, in the likes of Rolling Stones, Springsteen, etc, are currently brewing. It's also common knowledge that today many pop songs are produced byan assembled team. You've got your beats guy, and you got your lyrics guy, etc. They pass along their parts until they got a song and then they give it to the singer who can then uses autotune...
All I know is that human culture peaked when I was in my late teens and early twenties. Everything before that was old and boring, everything since is weird and degenerate. Everyone I talk to about this, whatever their age, seems to think this. But it's only true for me (and people my age) of course.
I suppose it depends on what you think qualifies as "better" or "worse" music. It's not so much an objective thing, but more of a subjective thing. If Beethoven were born today, I wonder if he'd be as good of a DJ as he was a pianist back then. With everybody uploading and sharing their music, I bet even Beethoven was *still* a God-like musician, there's a chance we'd never hear of him. He'd just be drown out by everybody else. In my opinion, the ability to learn and play an instrument, to sing, to write music, that's what qualifies as skill to me. Unless you're a savant (or have a generally high level of natural ability), it takes hours and hours to master those. Could it take hours and hours to master computer programs and their digital libraries, putting together "compositions" that sound good? Sure, absolutely. But it seems a lot of artists take the easier route and have ghost-writers, lip-sync, the full shabang. You couldn't convince me that that's somehow better. I'd rather listen to blink-182; sure, they don't play anything complex, and their live shows are far from album-level replication, but they don't fake their way through it. I can rest assured that it's them up there playing the guitar, *trying* to sing, and Travis Barker holding it together with his unbelievable skill on the drums. Speaking of album-level replication, most music artists record and record until they get it "right". The perfection of albums can often be completely artificial. It can be hard to say what goes on in the studio as far as altering pitches, or keys, or splicing together different tracks because "you killed *this* line, but we need re-record *that* line". That being said, a live performance should be a truer test and representation of their ability to perform. So I have a hard time understanding how anybody could say "I know so and so lip-syncs, and doesn't even write a note or lyric of their songs, but they're still extremely talented". I mean, talented at what exactly? Being a phony?
What is affecting creativity at the moment (in a negative way) is that the business interests that shape our lives are hell-bent on getting us to be consumers, rather than creators. We're not urged to make, or to participate. We are urged to buy, or to watch. How many owners of iPads or SmartPhones are able to create anything meaningful with these tools? While it can be done, it's not encouraged. What is encouraged is to buy apps that do your thinking and creativity for you. How many arguments have we had on this forum regarding the need to cater to the Market ...to write for the Market ...to discard any part of writing that the Market doesn't like or that the people who control it thinks the buyers of the Market's products won't like? And if you aren't prepared to funnel yourself down that chute, not only is your work probably doomed to fail, but you are probably a fool or a luddite of some sort. I am not sure how this attitude is supposed to spur creativity. For me, it certainly doesn't.
I agree with jannert. I'd argue that this is also why we don't see any new "rock legends". You'd think that they'd just naturally garner the attention that they deserve, but this isn't always the case when you have marketers and businessmen calling the shots. Most consumers see just what is put directly in front of their eyes, or in their hands, or whatever comes through their radio. Nowadays, you've got to look hard and leave no stone unturned just to find a talented independent artist.
I rarely disagree with you Jannert, but I will here. Anyone who believes this needs to wonder why they think this, and why are they seeing the advertising that they do. People are not urged to do anything, and it only impacts people who actually pay attention. It has nothing to do with creativity. Creative people will continue to be creative, and look for things that allows them to be more creative. If anything, I find that companies like Apple and many others are forever trying to push the message about productivity and creativity. It's not their fault people choose to surf the net, facebook, play games or check out porn. So have you actually looked at their ads Jannert? http://www.apple.com/au/ipad-pro/ (Click on Watch the film ) Not sure what you're seeing, I only saw all the creative and productivity potential. I bought it and I can say it delivers. My iPad is where a lot my writing happens now. That's where the first draft of anything happens, while I'm lying on my bed, daydreaming and writing. Because I was a sketcher in my youth, it was one of selling points if I ever got bored enough. I might have drawn maybe 3 images in over 20 years, but if it wasn't for the fact that writing absorbs me, I'd be reinvigorating my love of drawing on my iPad. Below is a sketch a month ago I did for a possible book cover concept using my stylus on my iPad and this excellent app called Procreate that cost peanuts. It might not be meaningful to others, but I sure had creative fun doing it. So my iPad has given me more creative options. When I have time, I'll play around with other features without having to deal with the mess of pencils, paints and spending a fortune of art supplies. So I am curious, what is your definition of meaningful @jannert? How does these apps do the thinking for you? I mean, I'd like an app to draw exactly what I had on my mind. That would be very clever...
These two millennials are the problem: 'people' who provoke my teeth to grate as they travel the world seeking experience for their blag, sappy goodness is nauseating - and all over my television, exactly
The "need to cater to the market" is only a need if you want to take part in the market. If your only definition of creativity is "writing something that sells", then, yes, creativity is limited by the market. But surely that isn't the only definition of creativity? Look at fanfiction. Mostly crap, sure, but it's people who are writing for the pure love of writing, no profit motive whatsoever. And some of it (I'd say at roughly the same ratio as self-published work) is really, really good. Some of the most creative, beautiful writing I've encountered in the last couple decades has been fanfic. Similarly, a lot of self-published authors aren't trying to make money so much as they're looking for a way to get their work out there. It's only about the market if you want it to be about the market.
Fair enough, you guys. I don't really have the mental energy just now to defend my position. And maybe I AM missing the surge of groundbreaking creativity that's being constantly encouraged by devices like iPads and iPhones. I actually subscribe to a major Apple-related monthly magazine (MacFormat) and read each issue from cover to cover. I haven't seen much there lately to stimulate my creativity. It's all about 'accessing' the internet, watching movies on the device, letting apps do your map-reading for you, your forward planning for you, now even COOKING for you. Latest wee wheeze? A frying pan that tells you when to flip your egg. Yeop. That's encouraging creative cooking, for sure. Sure you can cook without this trendy new device, but we're talking creative encouragement here. I just don't see it. It's the little things that discourage me. The fact that in the current edition of my Pages wordprocesser, the old Special Characters section of the Edit menu that used to give instant access to foreign letter marks, bullet points, and other font issues that creative writers need, is now set up to give instant access to acres of emoticons instead. You don't actually need to express emotion yourself, in words and/or pictures you've drawn yourself. Just pick one of theirs. Or a whole string of them, if your reactions to something are mixed. You do have to hunt long and hard for the old writer's font variations, though. I sure hope we are actually getting more creative as a result of technology because we're going to need some pretty radical creative ideas in the coming years, if we're going to survive. I do want to be wrong on this one.
You're looking at the market again, though. I mean, I don't know anything about Apple products and I agree that they're probably overhyped in terms of promoting creativity, but that doesn't mean people aren't using them, or using technology in general, as creative tools.
I thought I had covered that point in my original statement ...I said : While it can be done, it's not encouraged. However, never mind. I surrender.
@jannert yields to victors, her infamous beanstalk stands unfortunately just out of shot in this classic image.
I saw that very comment, but what I am telling you is that it is encouraged, and to respond to Bayview, it is not overhyped. There are a lot of power behind these technologies, and they keep improving. But if people don't wish to open their minds to it because they are fear change, are prejudiced, don't have the motivation, skill set, find it frustrating for learn what is on offer, or are just plain happy with what they do have, then that is not a fault of advertising killing creativity. And what I was trying to say and what @Iain Sparrow got, is that we control what we see. I choose not to subscribe to anything as a default even with promises of discounts. I rarely watch TV or movies, so I don't see advertising there. Youtube ads? Skipped as soon as the seconds are reached or I zone out. I'm blind to all advertising pushed onto me on websites. If I want to buy something, I put in the effort to do research. That's the only issue I see with technology, that there are so much to choose from, and that it generates so much data and noise. But it is up to the people to manage their own exposure, rather than blame advertising and businesses for numbing their brains, and making us less creative as a society. Why are you even letting an odd cooking device discourage you?! I'd see that as something I'd slip into a story one day, just so I can make fun of it. As for map reading apps, why are they a problem? On my bike rides, I can have at least 3 different map reading apps running. I use it for exercise and for game play strategy. It allows me to find interesting landmarks on the fly and saves me time. I could spend hours planning, but personally, why would I? Knowing me, the act of overplanning will bore me and I'll never leave the house. I'd rather not carry a paper map or a thick map book in my back pack, and stop and read the bloody thing all the time. I have a super duper little holder for my iPhone, so I know how far I've ridden, how far I have to go, and if I get lost, which is often, because I don't always pay attention to the google maps lady directing me, then I can get un-lost. Otherwise I'm listening to my music daydreaming about my stories, while exercising, while playing my geo-caching game. So how does all that stop me getting creative? I think you're mixing lifestyle choices with creativity.
I don't mean to give you a hard time Jannert. I respect your opinion. In this, I am just offering my own personal perspective. I'm not a person who runs out and buys the latest and greatest stuff. And it has actually taken me ages to adopt devices even though I work in IT. But they have been a great source of convenience for the busy stay at home, working mum with twins. I don't think I'd get to do half the creative or fun things (for me) that I'm able to squeeze in, if they didn't offer the time savings in life or creative tools to me.
I guess I'm just trying to get a perspective here. I've said before many times that I didn't attempt to do any serious creative writing UNTIL I got my Mac and the wonderful wordprocessor. It unleashed creativity and made it easy to be creative with words. And I can certainly see the results of creative work with photos, etc. It is a great tool. And iPads are getting more able to cope with this kind of thing. My version of iPad doesn't have a wordprocessor that works on it. I would need to get a much newer one with Pages on it (which this one is too old for). And I would do that, if I wanted to write outside my home on my iPad, so I surrender that argument with a good will. As you say, it's what you do with these devices that counts for creativity. I do think, however, that making daily tasks 'easier' isn't the same as encouraging creativity. A wordprocessor makes it easier for me to write—because it replaces paper, pen and typewriter. It does not influence how I think about what I write. And I still need to know grammar, spelling punctuation, word usage, sentence structure, etc. Right? Predictive text? That's another game altogether. And where do the lines cross? I now have to disable automatic spell checking and grammar checking, in order to get on with it. I CAN change the default, thankfully, but for how much longer? I hold my breath every time a new version comes out, thinking 'well, what have they taken away THIS time?' Okay, so the frying pan example was a bit extreme ...and my husband and I had a great laugh about it. But part of a related article says: "(Drop) is even talking about extending its iOS app into a kitchen operating system that will be able to work with a wide variety of appliances and guide novice cooks through every step of making their meals." Okay ...creative cooks ...what am I not seeing here? Never mind the relative cost of this 'system' (and its inevitable software upgrades) versus a good cookbook?
I think it's great for all you grandmas that you have your gismos. But us, the younger guys with writer talent, we tend to reject junk plastic shite: the kindles & mac-books, the vibrating telephones, novelty once I knew - to my discomfort. I prefer the assuring whirr of an oil-fired ordinateur - this rock I see - laid between toes, solid, dependable technology of the last century, 'Hi-ho Hitachi,' I say, 'your quality is timeless as my antique collection of Peter Rabbit figurines.'
