Why is everyone so quick to make fantasy either urban steampunk or medieval? There's so much more.

I love lots of books. But I think my favourite—I believe it's a 'perfect' book for many reasons—is one I read many years ago. Actually I had it read out loud to me. Then when I got older, I read it myself. I continue to read it every so often, and appreciate it more and more. When I first encountered it, of course it was the superficial story itself that I loved. But as I got older, I realised the skill it took to write it so simply, with such a confident voice, to defy so many conventions about what books for young people needed to be like. The book conjured up a time and place to perfection, without being either sentimental or pessimistic. It was a simple story, with only a few characters, but they were expertly crafted.

It's a story I still enjoy reading, and it still moves me. It's actually a very adult book. It's about how life doesn't always give you what you want, that it's often unfair and cruel. But you make the hard decisions, live with the consequences and keep going, because that's what you do. And you take pleasure in small things, when you can.

The story? Old Yeller, by Fred Gipson.

I still occasionally re-read stories I loved as a child, and many of them still 'work' for me. But none as well as this one does. There isn't a single word out of place, or a single aspect that rings false. I wish I could write like that.

 

That is beautiful, and it sounds like a toned down version of "A World Half Full" to me

 

I'm not familiar with that one. Who wrote it?

 

That's a matching factor, not another work that uses it

It's when the point of a work is that making the best of a horrible world is a victory in its own right and that the story doesn't need to be about the heroes fixing everything.

I'm still looking for a trope that more precisely describes what you're talking about, but do you think you'll be looking for works with that one in the meantime? The page has a pretty long list Including: Joseph Heller's Catch-22, Stephen King's The Stand, Terry Brook's The Word and the Void, Alastair Reynolds' Terminal World, and Cormac McCarthy's The Road.

 

I wasn't specifically seeking that story's outcome. I was only about 6 years old when I first encountered it (my first grade teacher read it out loud to us.) It was only later on, when I read it as an adult, that I began to really appreciate the craft and the theme.

What will attract me to reading a story in the first place (unless I've read reviews that make me interested) is usually the time period or setting. I was always attracted to stories set in the 19th century, and specifically in rural parts of the country. I still gravitate towards that kind of setting, and it's the general setting I used for my own novel. Why? I have no idea.

However, what the stories laid in those realistic historical settings can do is surprise me. The themes vary. I have never been very interested in the genre stories from that time period ...the stock Western, for example. My dad had a collection of Zane Grey, which I read, but didn't really like. Something about them didn't seem right. (Of course now I know they were pure myth, but I didn't know that at the time.) Then I remember reading a couple of books by Will James ...and that clicked for me. His stories were 'real.' Some were semi-autobiographical. I couldn't get enough of that kind of writing. My bookshelves are still loaded with stories written about that time and place. Willa Cather. Mari Sandoz. AB Guthrie. James Welch. Hamlin Garland. Charles M Russell. And of course the childhood 'other' favourites by Laura Ingalls Wilder.

I loved books set elsewhere during the 19th century as well—not just in the old west. In fact, that's probably my favourite period to read about, even today. I read even more non-fiction pertaining to that era, including lots more from First Nations writers, and love the personal histories and primary source works that I've gathered over the years. I love history as much as I love fiction, and I love when they come together well. Either written by contemporary hands, or written by modern authors who know their stuff and who portray life during the time with all its colours.

 

I see

The site doesn't have a good list of literature explicitly categorized as taking place Down On The Farm but there's always sites like GoodReads to fill in the blanks @BayView Does GoodReads have a category for stories taking place in the rural 1800s?

 

I think that my favorite is fairly heavily nostalgia-based: The Doll's House by Rumer Godden. It's totally a children's book, but hiding inside are tragic heroism, loyalty, betrayal, an examination of expected versus actual roles in the family, the aching need for security and home and a place in the world, the helplessness of the helpless, the strength of the helpless, the strength of true evil, status versus love, the value of different kinds of intelligence, abuse and recovery from abuse but the forever fragility, returning to life after bereavement...

(So maybe it's not nostalgia based. Maybe the core is as strong as I feel it to be.)

All with dolls. The bits where the little girls are learning stuff from adults could just be cut, as far as I'm concerned. And I really don't care if Emily "gets" Charlotte's message in the end. Emily's on her own, as far as I'm concerned.

Mr. Plantaganet losing his post office still makes me want to cry. Birdie's final action still makes me want to cry--and the fact that I put it that way means that I'm treating this as a story worth protecting from spoilers.

 

Down on the Farm? Ha ha ha! Erm...not quite....

 

Based on your recommendation, I've just ordered it on Kindle. It's a story I never read, but always meant to.

 

I don't really read a lot of fantasy, but this sounds interesting.

I jumped into the conversation without reading all the posts, but (to me) fantasy means you have the freedom to make up just about anything, right?
People are probably writing about the same things or having the same setting etc. because it's safe.

 

Let's see if this one goes better

Wow.

So I'm definitely finding a lot of blind spots that I wasn't aware of when I started plugging the site, but TVTropes does have categories for "Tragic Hero," "I Just Want To Have Friends," "Dark and Troubled Past," "Uptown Girl" (formerly called "Inter Class Romance"), and dozens of different types of loyalty, betrayal, and "intelligent" characters.

I can count on one hand the number of times knowing an ending ahead of time made me enjoy the experience more rather than less.

 

Goodreads has about 1.5 billion.

... Wow.

 

That may be counting multiple versions of the same book as separate? Like, one title may be counted for hardcover, paperback, e-book, audiobook, etc.

Still... it's pretty huge. I think because of the Amazon connection, most books show up on Goodreads as soon as they're up on Amazon.

 

Actually, the test in this case is writing meaningful literature and the method of not studying is not learning and using science/history/ our real world, in other words, using fantasy. So it's a problem with the method.

 

SciFi/Fantasy or otherwise

I'm confused. Is "SciFi/Fantasy that qualifies as meaningful literature" inferior to "non-SFF that does not qualify as meaningful literature"

EDIT: What about these?

http://www.npr.org/2011/08/09/139248590/top-100-science-fiction-fantasy-books

More than 60,000 ballots were cast in our annual summer reader's survey — click here to see the full list of 100 books, complete with links and descriptions. Below is a printable list of the top 100 winners. And for even more great reads, check out the complete list of 237 finalists.

1. The Lord Of The Rings Trilogy, by J.R.R. Tolkien
2. The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy, by Douglas Adams
3. Ender's Game, by Orson Scott Card
4. The Dune Chronicles, by Frank Herbert
5. A Song Of Ice And Fire Series, by George R. R. Martin
6. 1984, by George Orwell
7. Fahrenheit 451, by Ray Bradbury
8. The Foundation Trilogy, by Isaac Asimov
9. Brave New World, by Aldous Huxley
10. American Gods, by Neil Gaiman

11. The Princess Bride, by William Goldman
12. The Wheel Of Time Series, by Robert Jordan
13. Animal Farm, by George Orwell
14. Neuromancer, by William Gibson
15. Watchmen, by Alan Moore
16. I, Robot, by Isaac Asimov
17. Stranger In A Strange Land, by Robert Heinlein
18. The Kingkiller Chronicles, by Patrick Rothfuss
19. Slaughterhouse-Five, by Kurt Vonnegut
20. Frankenstein, by Mary Shelley

21. Do Androids Dream Of Electric Sheep?, by Philip K. Dick
22. The Handmaid's Tale, by Margaret Atwood
23. The Dark Tower Series, by Stephen King
24. 2001: A Space Odyssey, by Arthur C. Clarke
25. The Stand, by Stephen King
26. Snow Crash, by Neal Stephenson
27. The Martian Chronicles, by Ray Bradbury
28. Cat's Cradle, by Kurt Vonnegut
29. The Sandman Series, by Neil Gaiman
30. A Clockwork Orange, by Anthony Burgess

31. Starship Troopers, by Robert Heinlein
32. Watership Down, by Richard Adams
33. Dragonflight, by Anne McCaffrey
34. The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress, by Robert Heinlein
35. A Canticle For Leibowitz, by Walter M. Miller
36. The Time Machine, by H.G. Wells
37. 20,000 Leagues Under The Sea, by Jules Verne
38. Flowers For Algernon, by Daniel Keys
39. The War Of The Worlds, by H.G. Wells
40. The Chronicles Of Amber, by Roger Zelazny

41. The Belgariad, by David Eddings
42. The Mists Of Avalon, by Marion Zimmer Bradley
43. The Mistborn Series, by Brandon Sanderson
44. Ringworld, by Larry Niven
45. The Left Hand Of Darkness, by Ursula K. LeGuin
46. The Silmarillion, by J.R.R. Tolkien
47. The Once And Future King, by T.H. White
48. Neverwhere, by Neil Gaiman
49. Childhood's End, by Arthur C. Clarke
50. Contact, by Carl Sagan

51. The Hyperion Cantos, by Dan Simmons
52. Stardust, by Neil Gaiman
53. Cryptonomicon, by Neal Stephenson
54. World War Z, by Max Brooks
55. The Last Unicorn, by Peter S. Beagle
56. The Forever War, by Joe Haldeman
57. Small Gods, by Terry Pratchett
58. The Chronicles Of Thomas Covenant, The Unbeliever, by Stephen R. Donaldson
59. The Vorkosigan Saga, by Lois McMaster Bujold
60. Going Postal, by Terry Pratchett

61. The Mote In God's Eye, by Larry Niven & Jerry Pournelle
62. The Sword Of Truth, by Terry Goodkind
63. The Road, by Cormac McCarthy
64. Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell, by Susanna Clarke
65. I Am Legend, by Richard Matheson
66. The Riftwar Saga, by Raymond E. Feist
67. The Shannara Trilogy, by Terry Brooks
68. The Conan The Barbarian Series, by R.E. Howard
69. The Farseer Trilogy, by Robin Hobb
70. The Time Traveler's Wife, by Audrey Niffenegger

71. The Way Of Kings, by Brandon Sanderson
72. A Journey To The Center Of The Earth, by Jules Verne
73. The Legend Of Drizzt Series, by R.A. Salvatore
74. Old Man's War, by John Scalzi
75. The Diamond Age, by Neil Stephenson
76. Rendezvous With Rama, by Arthur C. Clarke
77. The Kushiel's Legacy Series, by Jacqueline Carey
78. The Dispossessed, by Ursula K. LeGuin
79. Something Wicked This Way Comes, by Ray Bradbury
80. Wicked, by Gregory Maguire

81. The Malazan Book Of The Fallen Series, by Steven Erikson
82. The Eyre Affair, by Jasper Fforde
83. The Culture Series, by Iain M. Banks
84. The Crystal Cave, by Mary Stewart
85. Anathem, by Neal Stephenson
86. The Codex Alera Series, by Jim Butcher
87. The Book Of The New Sun, by Gene Wolfe
88. The Thrawn Trilogy, by Timothy Zahn
89. The Outlander Series, by Diana Gabaldan
90. The Elric Saga, by Michael Moorcock

91. The Illustrated Man, by Ray Bradbury
92. Sunshine, by Robin McKinley
93. A Fire Upon The Deep, by Vernor Vinge
94. The Caves Of Steel, by Isaac Asimov
95. The Mars Trilogy, by Kim Stanley Robinson
96. Lucifer's Hammer, by Larry Niven & Jerry Pournelle
97. Doomsday Book, by Connie Willis
98. Perdido Street Station, by China Mieville
99. The Xanth Series, by Piers Anthony
100. The Space Trilogy, by C.S. Lewis
​

 

Don't be sneaky and try to lump together fantasy with sci fi

 

Why not? Would breaking the science and history of the real world for Science Fiction not dampen a story's quality the way that breaking the science and history of the real world for Fantasy would?

 

Science fiction and fantasy are two very different animals. One speculates, the other reduces.

 

How so?

 

Let's look at two classic sci fi/fantasy examples-- space travel and the unicorn.

When we talk about space travel--and there are a million threads in WF about it--the same questions always come up. How could we achieve FTL speeds, how many generations of people would it take to get to another galaxy, how far would would we have to go to find another planet like Earth, etc, etc. This is speculation.

Now look at the unicorn. It's just a white horse with the horn of a miniature narwhal slapped into its forehead. There's no consideration to neck strength, or whether it would prevent the unicorn from grazing effectively, or if the horn would get stuck-- no consideration for biology or evolution. It's just mixing and matching two pictures-- physics and biology is ignored. That's reduction.


We could fix that. Maybe the horse is genetically spliced with a gnarwhal. Maybe a sick billionaire gets the horn of a narwhal surgically implanted into the head of a horse for an art show, and then the horse dies. Now it's science fiction.

Similarly, maybe we just put some regular joes into a cool looking metal vehicle, strap on some sound effects, give the pilot a vest, and let them travel to any planet they want within minutes, no physical considerations required. Now it's fantasy.

 

And where does Soft SciFi like Star Wars, Star Trek, Doctor Who, and Marvel Comics fit into this? Is there no such thing as Soft SciFi because Fantasy and Hard SciFi are the only categories?

What about fantasy where certain aspects couldn't possibly exist under the laws of nature in real life, but where a lot of attention is given to establishing the laws that they do follow instead?

 

A number of stories have elements of more bone genre.

About the second question--if you're making up your own rules it's just reduction.

 

Even if you make it massive and intricate?

 

It sounds to me like you want to write science fiction.

 

I think what @numbersenpai is trying to say is:

Sci-fi = If this were to happen
Fantasy = I wish this were to happen

Not coming up with the 'if' is seen as lazy writing.