Sexualization? What does it mean to you?

I am discovering my internal definition is perhaps not matching many others.

I have this character. She might be what some would consider sexy. And she is naked. Lol. There is internal logic to the character and it has nothing to do with arousal or sex. Granted. I worked backwards. I started with her naked as a shock and built in a logic reason to support it.

I don't personally see her as sexualized because her sex or attractiveness isn't what I think about when I think of her. I think of this warrior who was defeated and lost her honor. Someone who carries on without a smile but yet never falters. Someone who has the internal strength to do that. And her nakedness only adds to the tradegy that is her.

So... Opinions time. Go!

 

I don't really know what you're asking, for sure... just... when do we think there's a sexual aspect to a situation?

I don't think nudity is automatically sexual, no.

But I'm wondering about the "started with her naked as a shock" part... I'm not sure where the shock comes in, if you're not kind of riffing on what you see as people's expectations that nudity is sexual...

 

Sorry. I was sleepy, still a bit am. Let me try to clear my point.

By sexualized. I think of the situation, when someone is like. "She is not a character, she is a sex doll that moves or her character is dimished by uneeded or unexplained aspects of her(or I suppose his, his probably being less common) sexiness."

Does that make more sense?

In the case of my character. The argument I am presented with is, that because she is naked, she is viewed as the previous statement. Yet, sex is meaningless to her. Her nakedness has an internal reasoning, which briefly is that she is self punishing herself. She lost her humanity, and as a result discarded what she considered a symbol of her humanity.

By shock. I think she is scary actually. think the nakeness adds to this. Like, she is magically talented in ways that allow her lifting strength to be increased by a large amount.

I picture her opening scene just walking towards these people in a café and walking into the middle of the street as a car rushes at her and her just like flipping it with her bare hands before she resumes her charge at this couple in the café. Which I suppose is a bit of a subversion of expectation. Because she is short, little(like 100 pounds) and naked yet charging like a 800 pound gorilla and she will give you just as much mercy as the wolf that sees you as dinner.

Hense, I don't see her as a sexual character. I see her as this scary person you would run away from.

 

Are you using her being naked as a shock factor (as in 'OMG, she must have escaped from a mental institution!) or as her discarding her humanity (the things that make her human) or something else? Your clarification confused me more.

Regardless, a character is going to be as sexualized as you make them. If you focus on her physical attributes in a sexual way description-wise you will be sexualizing her to your reader. If you don't, she won't be. She can be a crazy-strong tiny chick that happens to be naked (because flying metal doesn't scare her), or you can focus on the way her breasts bounce while she throws a car and she can be sexualized. I'm not sure if that's helpful or not.

ETA: The shock aspect confuses me. You said you started with her naked for the shock and worked backwards. That sounds like you're using it as a device to hold the readers interest. Is that what you meant?

 

Oh I love discussion. I want all the ideas! Not just my own. Though I think I agree with you.

Though the shock factor isn't either, as the humanity thing you wouldn't know about til later. Nor do I think its like she escaped somewhere. I think it is more like. Something abnormal(naked powerful short girl) is rushing towards you with murder in her eyes! Scary right?

 

Then what about the second question. What does it mean to you? What is what you would consider fanboy or sexualization?

 

I added this in my first post

Personally I think a short 100 lb girl throwing cars around is scary without the nudity. I'm just trying to understand why she needs to be naked? I mean, it's your story, you can let her be naked and riding a white tiger if that's what you want. I'm just curious.

 

Perhaps shock was the wrong word lol.

I tend to be too conservative in my own taste. Like I don't find her design sexy at all. Though since I have art of her. I have learned I am in the minority there. Lol.

Like one girl is in a particular design of a dress and every example of the dress had cleavage that just looked unneeded. I couldn't find an example of the dress without it. Like it was a turtleneck with a circle hole over the boobs. So when I used that dress I excluded the hole cuz that is my style.

I was, at the time of this idea, afraid ifi didn't push myself outside of comfort zone. I would get too attached to it. And I like diversity. I may not like the visual design but others do.

Though, I did see it as a shocking moment still but I suppose shock wasn't my true goal.

 

Lucky for me it is a book 4 idea. By then the audence is hooked .

I think I messed up the phrasing of my question.

I mean. What is your personal opinion of what is considered sexualization. I seem to see two sides to the coin. One that her nakedness is auto sexalization. The other that her attitude and internal logic play a certain part to it. Which camp do you lean towards? Or is it like a different third camp I haven't even considered.


Yeah. I certainly understand how nakedness would give that impression added with voilence.

Though to add. Given her backstory. There is sort of a symbolism to it. Nakedness becomes a symbol of her lost humanity.

 

I consider it to be when the nudity is for the purpose of titillation, to grab attention, etc. I think though, no matter how it's intended, there are always going to be people who think that if they're naked, it's for their explicit enjoyment.

And if you write it that way, I wouldn't consider her to be sexualized, but there will certainly be people who do. It's just the way it is. You could write the most horrible, tragic scene of someone being victimized and there will be someone, somewhere, who gets off on it. I wouldn't worry about it. You have a vision, stay true to that and don't worry about it

 

Your premise makes me think of Elfen Lied. In that (anime; never read the manga), the opening scenes feature one of the main female characters buck naked with her face/head covered, not saying a word - it can obviously be read as pretty dehumanizing. On the other hand, we can easily infer that she's been put in this position by external forces, and she's exerting her own will, now, by murdering everyone with her psychic powers.

I don't feel that this example is sexualized. Could it be set up in such a way that she's not naked? Yeah, easily. But it's not shot in such a way that the 'camera' is telling you to focus on her tits (from what I remember; I could be wrong but fifteen-year-old Izzy didn't think it was hot, at least). The focus is on the action, and the very justified fear she inspires.

It's a lot easier to look at a visual medium and know in two seconds whether something is meant to be sexual or not, by that 'camera' - or just whether the artist has difficulty portraying a character without sexualizing them, I guess. In writing, you still have to consider perspective. Are you writing in the pov of someone who'd be obsessed with her boobs rather than the fact that she's throwing cars around? Well ... probably not gonna be a likable pov character, but all right. But as you're orchestrating this whole thing, you can choose to focus on the strength instead, and shift the reader's 'gaze' away from the details of her body.

But setup is important too. The character from Elfen Lied didn't have a choice in her attire, but the creators did, and you need to justify it - like any other aspect of your plot, imo - on both levels:

1) Why does the character want to be naked? Does it make sense in-universe, as a decision that a person would make? Is she aware of how it'll make other people perceive her, and if not, why not (eg was she raised by wolves)? Isn't she going to get cold, or sunburned, or hungry when she can't walk into a store to buy food? Is she not thinking about any if these things because she's had a mental breakdown or something?

Personally, I'm not buying the 'loss of humanity' angle. It doesn't make sense to me. It'd need more context to be believable.

2) Why do you want the character to be naked? I think without a solid reason in-universe, it's likely going to come across as the author butting his head in for cheap titillation. You've mentioned shock value and diversity in design, but I'm not sure if either of those things make sense / sound like good reasons.

That said, I think the most important thing is the in-universe reason. If that's solid, no one has to question authorial intent. ETA: Well, that and the prose itself. A good reason for nudity can be derailed by a writer who just wants to dwell on the cheesecake.

 

No disagreement from me. It pains me when some many people agree with me on something I see as a discussion! It's hard to argue lol but I suppose that is nice sometimes too.

And more context I have!

Though since I am unable to type a longer message currently.

I have a question.

Why is it not believable. It's a self punishment for the crime of lost humanity. So any issues that this does to hurt her. Store or sunburn or any other is the point. She is intensionally trying to hurt herself . Right?

 

I think by designating her nakedness as a punishment, you've outright decided that nakedness = shame. Why is it shameful to be naked? Because to be naked is to be sexual, and to be sexual in public is shameful, by the standards of many societies. You could say that she is punishing herself with nakedness to allow herself to be harassed, but in effect it's the same. To me, in the context of your story, naked is sexual.

But sexual doesn't necessarily mean sexy. If you don't want it to be sexy, like outright almost porn bouncing tits kind of sexy (as mentioned before), then don't focus on the nakedness. Mention it, because it's clearly important to the character development, but don't dwell on it. I'm not sure what your POV is but so long as that character/narrator doesn't focus on the nakedness it will be fine. You have the power to designate how sexual you want your story to be, so make it however way you want it!

 

Yay! I love interesting points of view.

Though I argue that the underline context has to be shame exactly. Or at least sexual shame.

Her inner connection is essentially. Humans wear clothes animals don't. Thus she no longer sees herself as human.

I could see the argument that this is still a shame idea. But not towards being naked. Rather towards being an animal. Devoid of humanity or what she might call her honor.

 

I see what you're saying now. So not a Cersei Lannister kind of walk of shame but something completely different. She considers herself an animal now, so she is no longer wearing clothes. That's a lot clearer.

I think you might run into problem of sexualization in your story though, with her nakedness, since humans are by nature sexual creatures. Unless of course that's a societal concept you choose not to include in your setting at all, which is perfectly fine and pretty cool. Or I suppose you could just ignore it altogether (or have your character ignore it) and consider it a non-issue, which could be an issue for the readers (excepting your character's disregard for it). It's hard to say, as the others have said, without context or without reading it.

 

I see. That makes a certain amount of sense, though there's definitely more straightforward methods of self-harm.

 

I have to agree with Izzy. If I was going to self-harm I'm not going to try for a sunburn on my nethers. That doesn't seem like a productive use of time, personally. If I was attempting to degrade myself, that could work, like Cersei Lannister as was suggested. But self-harm? No. There are far better ways.

The animalistic thing I kind of get, but only kind of.

 

Keyboard on!

@daleydale

While my character and situation is on display. I would hope it isn't the only example that makes it into the thread. I am curious more on, what gets us each to define the line rather than where she sits in relation to it. Before creating this thread I heard mainly two arguments, that appearance alone is all that really matters for sexaulization, and that context is needed.

And obviously you sit on the context side. Then more interestingly. What context really matters? Like, if she was conseratively dressed but a huge flirt? So on and so forth. I think the basic reasoning behind our answers is quite facinating.

@Trish @izzybot

I find this troubling. In the sense of. Your arguing the logic of self harm. When self harm is by its own definition, essentially illogical out of the gate.

In this case. If she lost her honor. Wouldn't trying to regain it be better? Why punish yourself? Even if you fail to get your honor back. Whats the point of such self attacking?

The reality in this case I think is just more of a ... people aren't always logical. Ya know?

But since the question of context has come into play. I shall give the true context.

She was a queen in a warrior like nation. (She was dressed at this time) but an invader came and essentially destroyed her. The king of this invasion made her an offer. Join his cause, and they'd be spared. If she ever actively betrayed him. He'd destroy her nation out of spite.

She agreed and became more or less, his attack dog. Her power was higher than any one other person in her nation. So she was indeed a worthy prize.

She hated this. She would have rather died a thousand times over. Yet, her duty was to her kingdom. She let go of her needs in response to theirs.

As the time went on, she became more and more actively depressed which made her job harder. When your killer is sad. You beg for mercy longer. So she redefined herself.

She cut her hair, tossed her clothing and embraced the darkness. She became the monster she knew she was becoming. She still understood it was wrong. But at least now her victims could die angry at her.

And more than that. She understood the simple truth. If you can't kill her? Then what hope do you have against her master.

She eagerly awaits the day she may finally be killed in combat(as sucide would be considered a betrayal.) And may finally be able to rest in peace.

So yeah. She wants to be viewed as disgusting or evil or a monster. It makes being the monster easier.

 

@GuardianWynn I didn't say it was logical, I said if my desire was self-harm, to punish myself, I could think of better ways than sunburn. And while self-harm may be illogical, it is human nature. It's like when someone rear ends your car and you punch the steering wheel because you're pissed off. Is it logical? No. Does it fix anything? No. Does your hand hurt? Probably.

Okay, she can't commit suicide, she wants to punish herself, she's becoming the monster, so that her victims can die angry at her to make them feel better - wait, what? Now she's not a monster anymore. She's doing something kind for her victims and her kingdom. Not feeling the monster.

Still not understanding how nudity has anything to do with it. I'm not trying to be mean, I just am not seeing it.

 

Oh I love the debate! No meanness taken.

While her underline motivation are nice. She still crushes nice people under her bare feet. This is kind of mean?

 

@GuardianWynn
Well of course she does, because she has to. To me, this makes her a slave, a pawn. She has no choice but to crush them. The underlying motivation sounds like it's making her more human. Not less.

 

It doesn't sound to me like this character is sexualized, since none of your descriptions really focus on sexuality.
Personally, I don't think you need an essay in your story on why she chooses to be naked, has to be naked, etc. Maybe she just is. You're writing fantasy, right? It doesn't sound like realism to me anyway. As a reader, I would simply accept it without demanding an immediate explanation. Just my take. I didn't ask questions about all those weird creatures in Mos Eisley Canteen, and those were some shady dudes.

 

A very interesting idea!

I understand the logic. Which gives the situation an ironic twist I think lol.

Though. Even if you see her as more human. She does see herself as a monster. So the two views are an either or situation.