1. Gadock

    Gadock Active Member

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    When is a magic system too large?

    Discussion in 'Fantasy' started by Gadock, Oct 9, 2017.

    So, for quite some time I've been working on my magic system. Expanding in size to have a logical rule throughout the story to prevent the -MC suddenly becomes overpowered in order to kill the super villain and there's no real explanation to this!- kind of trope.

    Further more, I'd like to create a system where the reader could rationalise to what they would've done or come up with (if I can write it well enough for people to be that interested).

    However, now I've finished writing this system out I found it's nearly 2k long (including examples). Is this doable to add within a single story?

    This is my first story I will write, which I would like to do properly, to the point I haven't started yet on an actual draft. I might be overworking this, but I first would like to have the history, story plot line, magic system, and characters worked out before I start on the story. Now I've reached that I'm afraid I want to add too much and won't have a complete story in one book. I will be forced to write multiple books, even though I would love this, I've read that most people and especially publishers would like to see whole stories within one book.

    Anyone any thoughts?
     
  2. Lifeline

    Lifeline South. Supporter Contributor

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    You don't have to include all this information in your story. My personal preference is adding only what needs to be there as the character encounters challenges, and leave all the rest in the back of your mind. If the system you've worked out is coherent, the reader can feel it (because there's a logic behind it), but he won't appreciate long instructional details.

    On second thought: Maybe he would. There are readers for all kinds of stuff. Figure out which kind of reader you want to attract, and add the pertinent parts of your magical background :)
     
  3. 8Bit Bob

    8Bit Bob Here ;) Contributor

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    Took the words right out of my mouth.
     
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  4. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Just chiming in to agree that there's no reason to include even the tiniest, tiniest fraction of this in the story itself. When a character drives a car, you don't give the reader a few thousand words on internal combustion.
     
  5. Clementine_Danger

    Clementine_Danger Active Member

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    I've got a novel-length bible for one of my fantasy worlds and after revisions I doubt a reader will ever see more than 1% of it.
     
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  6. Gadock

    Gadock Active Member

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    I might need to find how likely people would want to know in depths magical systems, I personally enjoy it but might be a minority. Depending how small this minority is, if at all, I might just write it all out. If the minority is too small I might have to adjust, and try to write for a more general public. I do would like to have my work read by as many people as possible.

    I could leave several parts out, but for the plot and general character development indepths knowledge will be needed in my particular case. If I need to make some major changes like stated above, I'd also have to make major changes on the plot and character development.
    Why would you think that? And you mean, a novel at the length of a bible?



    Thanks all for your input, one thing made clear for me whilst writing this post. I will write like I'd like, even if I'm the only one that would enjoy it, so be it. I don't think I can figure out first what the general population would enjoy, and if I would have to adjust too much of my story to fit for the public, would it really still be my story?

    So all in all, thanks! :D
     
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  7. Clementine_Danger

    Clementine_Danger Active Member

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    A bible in the screenwriting sense. Basically it's a regularly updated document of setting and character information tv writers use to keep the facts about a show straight. A worldbuilding document, basically. I've seen the term used by fantasy authors too.

    I won't use most of it for my current WIP because the vast majority of it just isn't relevant to my story. I'm in the camp that says a writer should know every detail of their world while the readers should know only what's relevant. YMMV, but it works for me.
     
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  8. Gadock

    Gadock Active Member

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    Didn't know it was called like that, but something I completely agree with. I kinda already have done something like this because I won't be telling everything either of what I've written down so far in my bible. However, mine might be more of a mere pocket bible compared to yours it seems :p.
     
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  9. Clementine_Danger

    Clementine_Danger Active Member

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    Don't encourage me, worldbuilding is the guilty procrastination I get up to instead of actually writing.
     
  10. Millamber

    Millamber Senior Member

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    Personally I would favour only knowing what is relevant. I wouldn't want to wade through paragraphs and paragraphs of how it all works, unless it's pertinent to the story.. i.e. one character asking a magic user how or why they're doing what they're doing?
     
  11. Gadock

    Gadock Active Member

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    The whole story is relevant to the development in understanding of magic, similar how technology can be used for good or bad. Often I find you have to set clear borders in both SciFi and Fan or you’ll get to scenarios that make people wonder, why didn’t you [reason]? Even when it would’ve been impossible from the writers original intent.

    Now, this is my first book and I do find it difficult to determine whether I’m using too much or not. I hope, when I get to the point I can start having Beta readers, to have this pointed out.

    Thanks for the input ;)
     
  12. An Enemy Spy

    An Enemy Spy New Member

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    Magic needs to be internally consistent to work well in a story. However, unless you're publishing an RPG, there's no need to write out a complex set of rules for your reader. Nothing makes magic less magical than reading the boring instruction manual for it. If you follow the internal rules then the reader will have a clear idea of what can and can't be done and what they can expect a character to be able to do. Follow your rules and the readers can piece the magic together on their own. Break them and the magic becomes nothing but a plot device to pull out of your butt when you've written yourself into a corner. Discerning readers know the difference.
     
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  13. OJB

    OJB A Mean Old Man Contributor

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    The moment a magic system is too large? When it has its own text document.

    I have 2 rules for my 'magic.'

    1. Karma and the six reincarnation cycles exist.
    2. When magic or monsters are perceived, people don't recognize them as magic or monsters unless they mad or are blessed.

    Those two rules govern all my stories, nothing more, nothing less.
     
  14. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    I am not even sure I understood the second rule. lol.

    @Gadock

    In my opinion it has nothing to do with how "large" the text file is. Heck, I have one that is like 2k and it has basically no examples. There really is no such thing as a magic system that is too large. Different styles for sure. Dungeons and Dragons has books about that world and that magic system is HUGE! lol. Heck, they release books about it. I think. I am not much a D&D player myself.

    And when you think of it from the characters perspective. Magic should be huge. Heck, a girl of my named Vivian is an author of magic study book in the world. So why should I feel that I can condense something that this character can write a entire book on, in less than 2k?

    What you are talking about though sounds much more about how you express what you have. Like, how much of it do you show. This is a big thing for a writer and I certainly don't have any simply answer. I mainly wanted to express that how large your magic system is, and how you express it(in depth or barely at all) are two very different things.

    Though, I do agree with almost everyone else in here. Your file on how magic works should NEVER directly appear in the book. That is called info dumping. Don't do it! That file should be for your eyes, or the eyes of people that ask for it because they are curious(assuming you don't mind sharing.)
     
  15. Gadock

    Gadock Active Member

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    The thing is, often I find without clear boundaries it difficult when a writer has intended something or is like you said: “a plot device to pull out of your butt when you've written yourself into a corner”. And also, personally, I like elaborate magical systems.

    I wasn’t thinking of writing a text book but instead more of an apprentice/ master situation and experimenting where through out the book you learn slightly more and more. I will in the end always know more than the readers because I also hate inconsistencies, but I would like the reader to have a quite good idea what’s going on.

    In my situation magic affect everything. Enchanting, enhancing, and general changing matter to casters will needs to have in my opinion a good system to it, if everyone can do it.

    So even when it’s a single question answered, and this multiple times through the story line as you learn more, would that still be considered info dumping or is there a fine line of which is info dump or not?
     
  16. Simpson17866

    Simpson17866 Contributor Contributor

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    That's my favorite part as a reader :)
     
  17. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    But if it affects everything, would it really be discussed that much?

    Going back to my car example, if cars were incredibly rare there would probably be a lot of excitement when they're seen, and discussion of how they work. But since they're everywhere, they're just an un-discussed part of life.

    Edited to add: Yeah, yeah, some people discuss them, but if you say, "Let's go to a movie!" you're not likely to say, "Let's use our four-wheeled internal combustion powered vehicle, with (blah de mechanical details blah) to progress along the architectural element known as a 'road', avoiding other four-wheeled vehicles, some of which may be electrically powered rather than... (blah blah blah blah). " You say, "Let's go to a movie!" and the car might enter into it to the extent if, "Your car or mine?" or "Can't. Dad's got the car."

    It seems to me that in a book where magic is incredibly common, it would be somewhat difficult to have a plot about magic, or even all that much discussion of magic. The plot would need to be about something else.
     
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  18. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    Its not such an easy question to answer. Info dumping is when the story is essentially pausing to explain something. Whether, that pause is 2 lines or 2 pages doesn't really matter. It is an art and becoming a writer is learning to do it.

    I have a nice example actually. A girl of mine named Claire. She has "a seers eyes" and as a result can see the future. I wrote a short story on her. And, it was my first time doing this. So the first like 3 paragraphs was her "explaining" her powers. This was horrible. I mean technically there is ways to make that work. Like adding a character asking about it, but Claire is a loner. So that wouldn't really fit her character. See, since Claire knew her powers, it didn't make sense for her to think about them. It was just my excuse to allow the audience to gain more insight into her power. And it was bad.

    When I re-wrote it. I cut almost all of that out. And instead focused on her just using her powers and described on using her powers felt.

    Like when you think about creating scenes between a master/student as an excuse to explain magic. That "can" be a great idea. If the story fits having such a dymanic. Ever situation needs its own fix. Adding such a character wouldn't have fit Claire, so it wasn't a fix there.

    Does that make sense?
     
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  19. OJB

    OJB A Mean Old Man Contributor

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    To give a brief example of what I mean; what is the more logical conclusion a person will come to terms with: "I heard music coming from another world," Or 'One of my neighbors -I don't know which one- had the most bizarre music playing on their radio the other day?" Most people would go with 'Radio.'

    -

    I'm not saying have a shit system, I am saying don't write a 400 page manual on how magic works. I have my two rules, and I write little notes down for my current WIP. Since my note book is in front of me, here is a note: 'People who commit familicide are turned into giant spiders made up of bone, stone, and wood after death.'

    There is nothing wrong with specifics, but you only need to know the specifics that your story requires you to know. I am not going to think of 'What happens to people who save children after they die,' because that situation never occurs in my current story.
     
  20. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    Thing is. If you have a complex magic system. Then you might want to know answers to question that don't directly come up. Especially if you are writing a series. This helps create internal consistency.

    In my world, it is fairly simple. A few simple rules. Any natural logical conclusion from those said rules.

    Actually this is one of the things I disliked about harry potter. So many concepts that never get fully explained. I had no feel for the laws and borders of the magic, thus no feeling from viewing it. But your right. We as an audience didn't need a manual but, if one existed, she might have shown us the magic better(okay I guess I don't know if she had a manual bt if she did and still didn''t show it to us well. Then shame on her! lol)
     
  21. SirKibblers

    SirKibblers Member

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    I am so guilty of this as well. I haven't written a single word of my story, only ~20 documents of notes, roughly 4 to 8 sometimes 12 pages each. Granted the story is also going to be used for a video game series, so I'll need a lot of longevity for it, and the concepts need to double up as plot devices and game mechanics.
     
  22. SirKibblers

    SirKibblers Member

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    This is why I value objectivity and ability to remove yourself from your perspective on your story over all else when world building, or rather, when implementing those ideas into the story as entertaining, altered exposition. Try to think, as hard as it is, of what the reader would think when reading your story. Write some stuff, then try to temporarily remove all previous knowledge of your systems from your mind, then read through what you wrote again like the way you think a blind reader would. If it makes sense, and is entertaining (that seems like what you're going for), then you got it down. If not, trial and error i suppose. This is all theoretical though; I've only tried it once and failed miserably, so I could just be talking out of my ass right now. Just thought I'd share, as I think we're very much in the same boat. Good luck.
     
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  23. Gadock

    Gadock Active Member

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    Gladly I’m not the only one! :D
    The plot is about the rediscovery of magic and men’s destructive behaviour when dealing with extra power. Magic is formed by what the caster can think of, so if I never would’ve pointed the rules out you get your mind is the limit scenario. This would than create all mighty beings with infinite power. If I have a few rules, as I had in the beginning, I could easily find ways to bend these rules and still creative ultimate destructive forces. So yes, I won’t explain how the car works in terms of combustion, but I do need to explain its limits. You know that already with a car, like you can’t travel to light speed with it. What would you do if you were dealing with if you didn’t know the background of it? How much do you think you need to know?

    As this is my first book I will most likely have quite a bit of trouble with, and hopefully something I’ll get right.

    I think the biggest difference between yours and mine is that my system is more of another natural force of nature. After death people being made up to certain creatures because of their life choices is very much soft magic style; it happens for no logical reason. Lotr is a big example for this, why and how everything happens as it does is no real reason to it.

    In my situation, casters are able to change forces to what ever the can imagine, as long as they understand what they imagine it in to. I know, super vague :p
     
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  24. Simpson17866

    Simpson17866 Contributor Contributor

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    Have you ever read The Dresden Files? Jim Butcher is fantastic at explaining how and why his characters are doing one thing with magic instead of a different thing :)
     

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