And your novel which was edited by this fantastic editor - did that get an agent and traditional deal? Don't forget it has to be your FIRST (all caps) novel for it to prove your point... for some reason. I've noticed Ed does this in many threads - throws a controversial grenade into it, posts something sanctimonious about it not being worth his time to defend, and then leaves the thread. There's a word for that: trolling.
Oh, I also wanted to share this email I got from an author a couple of months ago: I don't know if it was her FIRST (all caps) novel, or if it will get a deal, but what I do know is I didn't charge her for my services.
I asked that further up Ed's response was "Since I have not yet begun pitching the novel she edited, I can't answer that question, yet.. ."
getting back to the OP after an acrimonious diversion... What kind of editing, and how much you are willing to pay, depends on you the author, your resources, and is different from one author to the other. I, after decades of technical writing, don't need any help with SPaG. I can literally spot SPaG on a page without reading it. I would never pay for that service. Beta readers and my ever vigilant wife and editor in chief @K McIntyre will catch whatever I miss. I think my most well-hidden SPaG was the last one found buried in E&D, "Dolphins doing slow roles by the ship." Thanks for that one, @jannert! However, there are others, some with whom I work, who are totally challenged by that, though they can tell a good story. Whether they should pay for that, or find a friend who is willing to do that for free, that is a judgment call and a question of resources. I had much less confidence in story-line editing, as I have never had a creative writing course, and do not know anything about character arcs, three act plays, foreshadowing, etc., except what I have learned from reading. I was very uncertain when I finished the E&D whether I had a good story, or just a very long piece of crap. So I did engage an editor. First, I went for recommendations from friends who had successfully published. And if you are coming up on publication time, start looking for such friends if you don't have one! Secondly, make sure the you and the editor are comfortable with each other's work. In my case, my editor offered to do a synopsis edit of the first 100 or so pages, and synopses of the remaining chapters, for $150. While this involved the tediousness of writing about 60 synopses, I found that I had one chapter in which nothing at all happened, and needed a complete rewrite. That way, she had a feel whether further editing would be worth her time, and I could assess whether her observations were worthwhile. At the end, I contracted her services at $2/page, less the initial synopsis edit. I feel it was worth it, if for nor other reason it left me confident that the story had potential, my first review by a professional. If you engage an editor 1. Get one by recommendation 2. Get a list of authors they edited who subsequently published, and read their books. 3. Get one preferably that has published something, read it yourself and see if they in fact can practice what they preach. 4. Arrange for some early previews so you can either get off on a comfortable footing without spending much money, or get the bad news early. 5. Be willing to consider their recommendations I would exercise caution in using friends or family as editors. They may be either too critical, or unwilling to tell you the bad news. And you may have trouble accepting criticism, or doubt their enthusiasm. They can be a help at the beginning, and my wife and I always exchange chapters as they are written and rewritten, and we are very comfortable criticizing and accepting each other's criticism. But when she comes up for publication, I want someone else giving the go/no-go decision to her. It seems that some on this site think there is only one right way to do things, whatever that "thing" might be, writing, story line, editing, etc. That is more true in my field of engineering, but in the creative field of writing, there are many different approaches, one of which is best for you. Trouvez votre propre chemin!
getting back to the OP after an acrimonious diversion... What kind of editing, and how much you are willing to pay, depends on you the author, your resources, and is different from one author to the other. I, after decades of technical writing, don't need any help with SPaG. I can literally spot SPaG on a page without reading it. I would never pay for that service. Beta readers and my ever vigilant wife and editor in chief @K McIntyre will catch whatever I miss. I think my most well-hidden SPaG was the last one found buried in E&D, "Dolphins doing slow roles by the ship." Thanks for that one, @jannert! However, there are others, some with whom I work, who are totally challenged by that, though they can tell a good story. Whether they should pay for that, or find a friend who is willing to do that for free, that is a judgment call and a question of resources. I had much less confidence in story-line editing, as I have never had a creative writing course, and do not know anything about character arcs, three act plays, foreshadowing, etc., except what I have learned from reading. I was very uncertain when I finished the E&D whether I had a good story, or just a very long piece of crap. So I did engage an editor. First, I went for recommendations from friends who had successfully published. And if you are coming up on publication time, start looking for such friends if you don't have one! Secondly, make sure the you and the editor are comfortable with each other's work. In my case, my editor offered to do a synopsis edit of the first 100 or so pages, and synopses of the remaining chapters, for $150. While this involved the tediousness of writing about 60 synopses, I found that I had one chapter in which nothing at all happened, and needed a complete rewrite. That way, she had a feel whether further editing would be worth her time, and I could assess whether her observations were worthwhile. At the end, I contracted her services at $2/page, less the initial synopsis edit. I feel it was worth it, if for nor other reason it left me confident that the story had potential, my first review by a professional. If you engage an editor 1. Get one by recommendation 2. Get a list of authors they edited who subsequently published, and read their books. 3. Get one preferably that has published something, read it yourself and see if they in fact can practice what they preach. 4. Arrange for some early previews so you can either get off on a comfortable footing without spending much money, or get the bad news early. 5. Be willing to consider their recommendations I would exercise caution in using friends or family as editors. They may be either too critical, or unwilling to tell you the bad news. And you may have trouble accepting criticism, or doubt their enthusiasm. They can be a help at the beginning, and my wife and I always exchange chapters as they are written and rewritten, and we are very comfortable criticizing and accepting each other's criticism. But when she comes up for publication, I want someone else giving the go/no-go decision to her. It seems that some on this site think there is only one right way to do things, whatever that "thing" might be, writing, story line, editing, etc. That is more true in my field of engineering, but in the creative field of writing, there are many different approaches, one of which is best for you. Trouvez votre propre chemin!
You are right of course; it is something that's down to the author and their situation that determines what is going to be right for them. If you make good money in your day job and can afford to drop a grand to polish your book then there's nothing wrong with doing that. It's not easy to find betas, in fact that's something I've often complained about here. I can totally understand why those who can afford to pay an editor/story consultant would do that rather than search for them. And, well, beta reading is real work. My last book was fairly well polished but I still got a lot of feedback about it; some big, some small, some stuff that was just interesting to talk about. It's not nothing to just read someone's book and write some thousands of words back to them about it. Honestly, if I could afford to pay my betas for their efforts then I would, even though they never asked for it, simply as a show of appreciation for their work. If they were people I saw in real life I'd at least buy them a nice dinner or a few drinks or something; they did me a huge favor and went way above and beyond to help me out so just saying thank you doesn't quite feel enough. But for all that; no-one should feel they have to do anything. Certainly no-one should ever feel that they aren't a real writer because they haven't paid to go on courses or to engage a professional editor. Any claims that you aren't really trying unless you spend a lot of money are a bit, well, uncool. The right approach is the one that fits you and your circumstances. If you think your work needs the professional touch to get it into shape; by all means. If you are happy with getting feedback from friends and loved ones then that's ok too. It's totally legitimate to say "I'm broke, I'm not paying for that..." because even if that investment does pay back it won't be for a while at least and starving to death while you wait for your book to be published isn't going to achieve anything. But if you can say "I'm not broke and I want to pay that..." that's fine too. But it's very important to get across that you can't spend money you don't have on this; a book isn't a singular thing. At least if you save your money you can write another one.
It's actually very good! It's a lot more than a romance. If you like cooking and/or food, it's a fascinating insight into high level cooking competitions. I was glued throughout. In fact, the romance was far less important to me than the rest of the content. And she managed to pull off an ending that was both satisfying and slightly surprising. She did a cracking job.
I think that's where research comes in. Same as you'd research a roofer or a plumber or an architect. You look at what they've done that's been published and decide for yourself if they know their stuff. You get feedback from people who have worked with them. You are their potential employer, so you engage the would-be editors in a discussion, get a quote, lay the ground rules, etc. And THEN you take your chances. If the people they've worked with (in your genre) are published to a high standard and feel the editor gave them a lot of help ...then you can probably trust that editor to help you as well.
Ed is not a troll. That's ridiculous. He's a longstanding and well-respected member here, who is truly supportive of other people's efforts and wishes success to his fellow members. All he was saying was that, in his opinion, it's a good idea to get professional feedback before submitting an MS for publication—and he backed that notion up quite well. Furthermore, it was a direct response to the OP's question. I don't exactly see that as a 'grenade' of any kind. And neither did several other members who have also contributed to the thread. You and others may not agree with Ed's view, but he put it forth in a calm and rational manner, and defended it in the same way. He's as entitled to his opinion as anybody else. What is it with some of these threads? As soon as somebody has a differing point of view, suddenly out comes the name-calling and finger-pointing and inflammatory language. Implying that Ed is a troll and that his opinion was a 'grenade' because he decides to leave the thread after three pages of pointless argy-bargy is a bit OTT, in my opinion. If the purpose of this forum is to discuss writing issues, perhaps we should make our points, agree to disagree if there is a controversy, and leave the personal attacks out of it?
I'm with @jannert on this one. Ed is most definitely not a troll, and has always been supportive. I was following this, but decided emphatically that it wasn't worth the drama and rise in blood pressure. His opinion doesn't have to be popular for it to be his opinion. We've all been there, where we just can't wrap our mind around how someone has formed (and can hold onto) this opinion that is so different from ours. And sometimes it gets a little heated. And he walked away because circular conversation doesn't get anywhere, but calling him a troll is a bit over the line here. I've known Ed in the context of this forum a long time, and I would never call him a troll.
I'm with you on this too - I don't agree with him on this point (or doubtless a passel of other stuff) but that doesn't make him a troll
Awwww, thank you! I'm not sure if you've seen me mention it in my progress journal, but my next project will be a sequel to UTK, tentatively titled Food Truck Edition. (Apologies for hijacking the thread).
Actually he offered his opinion as "fact," didn't argue it at all well, threw out personal attacks, and then left others to deal with the aftermath - as I've noticed him do often. That's troll behaviour. I've also very rarely seen him be supportive. Strange how we all interpret the same behaviour differently. I don't see the point in arguing with other members about someone who's left the thread, but I stand by what I said.
Oh, my goodness! A troll?! I feel a giant tear welling up. How could I be so rotten?! In case you haven't noticed, all I did was offer an opinion. Did I attack anyone? No. Did I call names? Slather on the sarcasm (aside from the first paragraph of my present post)? Insult ancestries? Don't see any evidence of it. Actually, it wasn't just my opinion, it was a recitation of recent experience - positive experience. I make no claims at expertise. I'm still learning. So, I take it, is just about everyone else on this forum. And I think it's pretty obvious that, aside from being admittedly excited about the way things are going for what I hope will be my first published novel, I have not been emotionally invested in what seems to have become a food fight. Frankly, I don't understand why anyone would allow themselves to get their undies in a knot over whether or not professional editing is helpful to aspiring writers. If one wishes to use one, they should do so (and follow @Lew's excellent advice above). If not, no one is holding a gun to anyone's head (not even me). Because, like a lot of things in writing and publishing, there is no absolute right/wrong answer. And nothing I posted above can be construed that way by any reasonable person. However, in my years on this board, I have noticed that there are those who will turn any simple disagreement into World War III. Perhaps some are trying to mask the fact that they don't actually know as much as they think they do (or want others to think they do). And maybe others want to test the validity of the notion that "(s)he who yells loudest (or types most fiercely) wins the argument". Still others might just use arguing to the death as their chosen method of unwinding after a difficult day. But I my age, I have no time for it. And so I proposed to disengage from @LostThePlot in as calm and polite manner as I could. I'd had the sense early on in our exchange that he was overly emotional about it, but as he continued to press his questions, I thought I'd answer them in the spirit of the forum. But it soon became clear to me that he was not about to lower the emotional thermostat, so I decided to simply break it off. After all, none of us owes anyone anything, do we? He then repeated several questions that reading my earlier posts would have answered, and at that point, I decided to "unwatch" the thread. I only came back when I became aware that two people I respect very highly in this forum had opined on the subject - @jannert and @Lew - and I thank them. Now, if that makes me a troll, then I want you to contact any or all of the mods and demand my immediate banning from this forum. Otherwise, you'll excuse me as I get back to work. Begging the forum's and OP's pardon for this silly interlude.
Well, just because it's the second time you've said something along these lines, let me remind you of: I think a reasonable person could absolutely construe "you need to have your ms reviewed by a professional" as a pretty absolute statement, don't you?
I think a reasonable person would also understand that it's still an opinion. If I say, "we need better regulation of firearms in the US"*, is there any doubt that I am expressing an opinion? I see no difference (other than subject matter) between the two. * DISCLAIMER - statement included for purposes of an example, only. No actual position is being taken by the poster, nor should it be in any way construed as such by readers. Any similarity to actual positions taken by any person, living or dead, is purely coincidental. No harm was done to any animal in the making of this example. State and local laws may apply. Your mileage may vary.
Obviously it's an opinion. An absolute opinion. My opinion is that sometimes, for some people, it might be a good idea to pay for professional editing. Your opinion was "you need to have your ms reviewed by a professional". Do you see how one of those is not absolute, and one is?
Fair enough. I didn't mean to imply that romance wasn't part of the book, or that I ignored it. It was an inherent part of the tale and the two characters involved were extremely believable and came across as real people—one of whom was extremely likeable from the start, and the other of whom grew on me along with the tale, which I assume was @Laurin Kelly's intention. I only meant I would have enjoyed reading Under The Knife even if the romance hadn't been there at all. Or, rather, the romance aspect of the story wasn't what kept me reading. I would still have enjoyed reading Agatha Christie mysteries even if there had never been a murder solved. I read them for the local colour of what I imagined England was like back in the day. I loved that aspect of her books so much I read them all. I never did give a rip 'whodunnit,' and I'm still not a reader of mysteries as a genre. Hers stood out for me, though. As did Under The Knife. That's the thing with genre books. Some of them can appeal to people who don't normally read the genre, and these people aren't converted TO the genre afterwards. However, if the reader becomes quite fond of that particular author's work, I'd say that author has 'crossover appeal.' Not a bad thing, really, if it results in higher sales. I decided to buy the book not because it was a Romance, but because I'm interested in cooking. I was delighted with what I read (the character development across the board as well as the cooking aspect of the story) and wrote a 5-star review on Amazon, and have recommended it to several of my friends. However, I have not been motivated to buy any other Romances as a result. I WILL buy Laurin Kelly's next book, though. I apologise for allowing this thread to get off track, though. Maybe we should PM the discussion, if we want to continue it? Feel free to PM me or start another thread. It's an interesting topic. Where do genre expectations end and simple enjoyment of a particular book begin? And is 'crossover' appeal something a genre writer might want to consider? The more people read and like your book, the better ...right?
In a rare foray into one of these vituperative exchanges, I am going agree with @EdFromNY, in that any first time writer would be well-advised to seek the opinion of a professional before starting the long process of submitting his manuscript for publication, and even more importantly, if they are going the self-published route. He did NOT say that had to be a PAID professional. I am VP of our local chapter of the Maryland Writers' Association, with @K McIntyre the president. Our group provides state-wide resources for exchange readers, the local community college has students in creative writing classes that will review work for free or for a small fee, as will instructors. And we have a number of published authors in our chapter, ourselves included, who will review prospective manuscripts. Anyone who would embark on a long and arduous journey is wise to seek advice and counsel from those who know the route. Otherwise, they are setting out without a map. I have walked out of several exchanges like this one has become without considering myself a troll. In fact I think it wisest to back out of them when they become heated emotional exchanges that totally ignore the person who started the thread. I wish that those of you who may be guilty of this would, on occasion, take a deep breath, ponder what the other has said, and consider that you may learn from someone with whom you disagree. I find it best, in a disagreement, to locate the points in which we agree, and use those points to build bridges to span the points where we disagree. And if we can't build those bridges, just say "I hear what you are saying, but I don't agree," and drop it as a point beyond resolution. Just sayin'!
