Thanks for the feedback. The entire novel takes place throughout the 60s. I mention probably 30 different events that happened during that decade (almost Forrest Gump style). I want the reader to recall as many of those tumultuous events as I can. However, I can't keep having someone watch a TV report or hear a radio newscast. I wonder if I took some of these "omniscient third" POVs and placed it in a different font with wider margins (almost like a "call-out" or a sidebar) if that might work. Has anyone ever read a novel with sidebars?
I don't know Rob's age, but many of us growing up in the 60s were less interested in the political stuff and more interested in: the latest music, films, TV (lost in space, flipper, and skippy) men on the moon (bit late, 1969), Abebe Bikila winning the marathon, the latest game and toy crazes (saw my first Barbie 1966), everyone taking transistor radios to the beach, male teachers suddenly wearing pink shirts (and even the queen of England wore mini skirts). Student riots in Paris impressed me, though, I remember. And yes, Vietnam played on relentlessly. But people living in the 'era' aren't always aware of it in terms of world shattering events. If you aren't writing a social history book, I think it's the personal memories that are important. But maybe I was shallow.
P.S. In answer to your question, I would not like to read a NOVEL with lots of footnotes (always avoid them) and I've never seen one with 'sidebars' but I'd probably dislike that, also. But yours may be so creative and different it would be attractive (not if it's as long-winded and full of whimsy as Forrest Gump, though). I read history books or biographies to learn about history. But I love a good novel that gives me an insight into a period, which usually means the writer has done a LOT of research or has personal experience of the era.
I wouldn't have particularly said the opening was weak as it made me think that something exciting was going to happen in the book, on the scale of these events. Also, it's such a short paragraph that it isn't going to lose the attention of the reader even if they don't like it. I don't see any problem with the shift in POV, personally. I've read lots of books where POV changes throughout- it just makes things more interesting.
I agree with Atari in that the POV shift isn't necessarily bad, just the really abrupt way you did it. You don't gradually shift POVs, you start with a summary of historic events and then bam, all of a sudden the focus changes. The two POVs have no connection so why are they together on the page? What connects them? Nothing, currently. Perhaps find a way to merge them together a bit more...relate them to one another and make the transition more gradual, to show the reader how and WHY these historic events have any tie to the POV character--and it might work better. Ask yourself, just because this story is set in the Sixties, is it even important to mention these things in the first place? I can start my stories talking about how Obama is president and Madoff allegedly ripped people off and peanut butter is poisoning people and whatnot but what does that really have to do with the plot...? Just because it's in the same time period doesn't mean it has any relevance to my story. You need to find your relevance. I don't even understand what you mean by using "sidebars." Have never seen anything like that in a novel, and it would make it hard to read, IMO. When reading a novel I want to read one linear story, not jump back and forth between the story and a sidebar.
It's done all the time, but you have to zoom in, so to speak. The way you have it right now, the camera is focused on the states, and then it bounces inside of Rob's head. Another one killed thirteen students from a tower on the University of Texas campus. James Meredith, was wounded by a sniper in Jackson, Mississippi. Some crazy guy murdered eight nurses in Chicago. Chicago, where industry boomed, where large towers let off black smoke by day and flames by night, and where people of different nationalities freely walked the streets. Rob’s friend, Larry, even told him that the streets were filled with trash. Larry had gone away for the summer to stay with an Uncle in Chicago, returning just before school started in August. Here is a quick attempt at what I mean by zooming in. If you change the order of the last two sentences in the first paragraph, you more easily lead into Chicago, rather than the last place mentioned being Texas. Then I attempted to zoom in from the states to a city. The camera then swooped in to the streets, and finally to Rob’s head. These aren’t the first two paragraph’s of the story, though, right?
Sometimes you see scenes in the same chapter seperated by an extra line, and sometimes by something like a star, eg: line of text. * Line of text. My question is thus: Does it matter which you use? Are they for different things? Eg: Changing a point of view, or moving forward in time but not to a new chapter, etc...
I've seen Kurt Vonnegut and Haruki Murakami using * * *'s a lot, and from what I've seen, not only do they separate scenes, but they can also open up a rift in the space time continuum and allow you to insert some valuable information, like when the character is doing one thing and you need to take a second to explain the situation, like as in a pause or break in the story.
Section breaks are important to separate scenes. I usually use the * in my own stories, but from the novels [Like Phillip Roth in "I married a communist"] I've read over the years, most just use a space to indicate a change of scene or point of view. vanhunks
IF you like to abide by rules. The *** or whatever usually defines a break when its at the bottom or top of the page. (so you can tell) Ussually one should just have a spaced gap to change scene or pov when in middle of page. However some authors use the little squiggle all the time, if thats works from them, then hey go ahead. Myself I dont tend to add squiggles Why? I sometimes have slight scene breaks without a POV change and the squiggle seems to break it up too much. However sometimes i might add a squiggle on a POV change.
Several submission guideline documents I've looked at specify a single line containing three asterisks to separate sections. That is probably a good one to use in your core manuscript, but always check the submission guidelines of the publisher you are submitting to/ The *** standing alone is relatively easy to search and replace if need be. However, you don't need to mark every scene transition that way. Only do so if you wish to emphasixze the break, such as the passage of a significant amount of time.
This. I used to do the *** thing, and then the ~ thing, and even a question mark (?) for one story, but now I just do this.
Unless a market/publisher you hope to submit to has a preference, simply using a centered # will suffice. Some publishers, especially ezines, will insert their own break design/marks--if any, in print publishers have their own or simply a space between the single-lined text. If you are consistent, the editor what works for the publisher where you sold your work will use what is standard for that house. Terry
ditto what terry said!... the ms format standard is the single # placed in the center of the line with no empty lines before or after it... unless the guidelines for a particular publisher say to use something else, you should stick to the established standard... and, btw, you can't know what an author uses, unless you see their ms... what you see in their books is almost always just the publisher's choice... and most publishers don't put any marks in the line breaks...
Well if we don't talk publishers and just talk writers... most writers I know use *** for an indication of a time change and a ~ for a viewpoint change. What I've seen with published books, though, is that publishers just create a small empty white space to indicate both a time jump or a viewpoint change...no markings of any kind. ~Lynn
...i've never heard of using two different marks for line breaks and can think of no good reason for doing so... are any of those 'known' writers?...
Off the top of my head I can't think of any books using different breaks for different scene changes, but if your story had a lot of POV changing, using a separate divider for that and normal scene changes seems perfectly reasonable as shorthand of what's happening to the reader.
I use *** for whenever there is a scene change. in response to the people above me I've never heard or seen ~ being used for a view point change.
I use *** to designate scene breaks. When typeset, my publisher just eliminated them unless the break came at the top or bottom of a page. In the YA novel I'm polishing up, I used two em-dashes instead of *** out of a sense of boredom, I guess. I don't think the use of one thing over another is going to make the difference between acceptance or rejection. ***, ~, #, or whatever are probably all fine. Dave
true, but most seasoned writers will use the standard #... so, if you use other stuff, you risk being seen by some agents/editors as an amateur... ...i doubt it will seem 'reasonable' to most publishers... and even the agents you submit the ms to may do a lot of eye-rolling...
The publishing industry is that pointlessly set on one (demonstratively occasionally non-ideal) format? Great. -_-
No matter what your opinion of the manuscript conventions (many of which date back at least to the days of the typewriter jockey), you are well-advised to learn and abide by them. I apologize if it sounds like scolding, but it really makes no sense to gripe about manuscript standards. It's like pissing into a stiff wind.
amen to that! if you don't like the current ms format mandates, just buy out all the publishers and change the rules 'n regs to suit you...
Everytime I sent Maia something, she hounded me about MS format, so now I type everything in standard format, including using the pound symbol for line breaks. However, I don't add double spacing until I plan to send it somewhere because it is harder for me to read. Interestingly enough, it is easier for me to catch mistakes using courier font.
