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  1. jollyoldchap

    jollyoldchap Banned

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    Smoothest Flow Possible

    Discussion in 'Word Mechanics' started by jollyoldchap, Aug 1, 2020.

    I'm trying to get my prose to flow as smoothly as possible in a certain style. But I've been running into a little trouble. Sometimes it doesn't always seem to flow that smoothly. I want it to be perfect. I know that just like poetry, prose has something like meter (feet, stress, etc.) Do you think there is anything I can do with the feet or the stress to make sure my prose flows smoothly?

    I seem to be having no trouble with the thoughts and stuff as long as I have an outline and know what I want to write, but I am having some trouble with the rhythm and flow of the words. I want it to be smooth, harmonious, rhythmic, and pitch-perfect. This is important to me because I think writing should flow perfectly. I think it is one of the most important qualities of prose, one that makes it fun to read.

    Does anyone know anything about prosody in prose? I've been researching this and I can't find that much useful information. All I know is that there are feet and accented and unaccented syllables. I'm not quite sure what to do with them. I have gotten pretty far messing around with them but sometimes I get stuck.

    Sometimes I write a sentence while writing the feet at the same time. Sometimes I rewrite the sentence based on what my ear says sounds good. Either way, I am using my ear. But if I had some guiding principles, that would be great, because it's not always easy to imagine the type of rhythms that I like.

    Some rhythms are unsatisfactory; some are staccato. But I want a smooth, harmonious rhythm.
     
  2. SethLoki

    SethLoki Retired Autodidact Contributor

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    I'm well into prosody, I love when any prosodic writing I read is not obviously so though (subtly done son)—unearthing a golden vein/skein and seeing where it leads. And I'd not like a piece/a find to be a style, pure in such a form, from beginning to its ultimate end mind. I prefer it leads to a flow break, to something staccato (shock), some stand out detail in the pattern. < Otherwise it becomes a lullaby or the message gets imprisoned by the style. IMHO
     
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  3. Seven Crowns

    Seven Crowns Moderator Staff Supporter Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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    Flow in the paragraph is built by contrasting structures in the sentences, and the thing about regular rhythms is that they have to be part of that contrast. Meaning you can't rely on them. You can definitely use them though. They are there.

    Aristotle would be progenitor of this. Of course he's talking about Greek, and his rhythms aren't ones you would dare use today, but his ideas are interesting. "Prose should not be metrical, nor should it be without rhythm . . . Metrical prose is unconvincing because it betrays artifice." Basically, the meter makes it predictable, so you lose more than you gain.

    In the early 20th century, Saintsbury was the main person pushing this approach. You can look up his "History of English Prose Rhythm." It's online. There were a whole bunch of guys trying to find bizarre rhythms in prose, strange stuff. They would try to link everything to Latin to explain English rhythms (as they saw them). That's always kind of dubious, IMO, linking to Latin. Beware of those guys . . . I'm not sure if his work is something you can use. These days, it's just a curiosity. But like I say, you can measure out a line with stressed syllables and shape it.

    The most modern "useful" approach I've seen for this is to think of phrases as having inverted spoken lengths. So a one-word phrase is slow, while a cluster of words is fast. It has to do with the pauses and how they're read. Of course, the problem is that everyone reads them differently, so the effect varies between readers.

    Slowly, stepping over dewy camellias, she threaded her way through the viscount's gardens.​

    So the phrases above go: slow, medium, fast. It has to do with acceleration. You can build rhythms here and there out of that sort of thing. But you don't want to rely on them or everything becomes sing-song. It's all about timing and taste, which sounds like something Mozart would say.
     
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  4. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    I wrote about poetic prose on my blog some time ago:

    Beginning to explore poetic prose

    The posts before it, to the beginning of my blog, were about poetic film, leading up to my delvings into poetic prose, and I made a post or 2 after that one as well on the subject.
     
  5. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

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    Listen to rap music if you want to learn about flow. I'm not kidding. And you'll learn a thing or two about story telling while you're at it. I recommend Rakim, Q-tip, Biggie, Raekwon and Ghost.

    Seriously. That's everything you need to know about syllables, accents, imagery, and the economy of language. And how to cram a story into 3:30. I have been frequently derided for feeling this way, but I've learned as much about how to use words from rap songs as I have from Nobel and Pulitzer laureates.
     
  6. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    ^ Word
     
  7. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    Eminem threw down some sick flow.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2020
  8. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Unless you're actually writing Rap ...and nothing wrong with that at all ...I'd suggest that you experiment with sentence length and word length as well. If your sentences are all the same length, it's going to sound dull. If your words are all short, or all long, it will be hard to establish any rhythm at all.

    I'd suggest that you take whatever you're working on now, and see what you can do to vary the sentence length. Short sentences have impact, but too many of them just feel choppy. You can combine short sentences (avoiding the comma splice, which is actually a grammatical error.) You can also split long ones. And you can ensure a mix of the two.

    I wouldn't go overboard trying to 'study' the issue. Just experiment, using your own writing. A good way to 'hear' if your choices work is to get somebody else to read it out loud to you. Preferably somebody who hasn't seen that piece before. They'll be reliant on your punctuation and word choice, to know where to pause, to stop, and where to keep flowing.

    You can also experiment with longer/shorter words as well. Try words that might actually express a concept better than the ones you have already chosen. Or a better-sounding word to convey the same concept. Think of the difference between 'limped' and 'hobbled,' for example. Hobbled is a more distinctive-sounding word, isn't it? He limped away. He hobbled away. They both sound quite different, yet could probably convey a similar picture.

    Play around with it. I'd say avoid trying to find some 'formula.' And whatever you do, don't sacrifice clarity or meaning for 'music.' That will weaken your storytelling, even if it gets the toes tapping. Don't Ella Fitzgerald it—or at least not all the time!
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2020
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  9. peachalulu

    peachalulu Member Reviewer Contributor

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    Know you weakness, word preferences and style. I tend to be a little be choppy so I know that even when I go for poetic prose and flow I know it's not going to be the same as others. Accepting that has allowed me to be poetic without chasing someone else's style.
    Word choice is key - knowing when to insert an adjective to lengthen the sentence to give it an extra, rhythmatic push or when to take something out. Poetic prose is not about giving information it is more about displaying the information in a way that triggers emotions.
    here is a snippet from Geek love by Katherine Dunn -
    we are marooned in the breathing bareness of the room

    The details of being alone have been transformed into emotion by word choice and by those syllables that build and echo each other.
    Read poetry, watch how they use verbs as strong verbs are the key along with building to an evocative end note.
     
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  10. jollyoldchap

    jollyoldchap Banned

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    Thank you everyone for all the information.

    I have a question. In terms of stressed and unstressed syllables, how do you control the speed at which a person reads a phrase? Do many accented or unaccented syllables make the phrase faster or slower?

    Thank you.
     
  11. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    Personally I wouldn't worry too much about technical stuff like stressed and unstressed syllables, unless you're writing actual poetry. I mean be aware of it, absolutely, but I wouldn't worry about all the technicalities like whether it speeds or slows reading. Instead just read it aloud. See how it sounds, try it with a few changes.
     
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  12. Seven Crowns

    Seven Crowns Moderator Staff Supporter Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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    Short words can speed it up, but mostly it's all about where the punctuation falls. A long string of short words will go fast. A single long word set off by punctuation will be very slow. You can get into weird ideas like syntactic symbolism, where the structure of the sentence mirrors its message. But that's only needed where you're placing emphasis. You don't want emphasis everywhere. The modern default is concise, a mix of long and short phrases that get to the point with tasteful style/voice.

    I guess I should say that "flow" usually has to do multiple sentences, i.e., sentence flow, and the easy answer for that is to use short and long sentences. At least that's what you'll find when you look up basic definitions of it. Here, you're talking more about the flow within a single sentence, and that's why you get into short and long phrases instead.

    If you're talking rhythms within the sentence, I mean . . . it's an effect. It does have a forward momentum to it with the stressed and unstressed words. I use it, but only at certain times. If you use it a lot (or even worse, everywhere) it can cause a different problem, and kind of a severe one. Everything starts to feel very rigid.

    Here's a page I found on it: https://www.dailywritingtips.com/sentence-flow/

    It's aimed at the sentence flow in the paragraph (and uses Dan Brown as their bad example, haha), but the idea carries to within the sentence too. They explain it better than I can in a post.

    I guess one thing I would add is that you should test your theory in practice. There has got to be a pro writer who is already doing this, the writer you wish you could match in talent. I would examine their writing and see how consistently they're using meter. I'm betting that it only happens in crucial moments and that they're mostly relying on phrase length.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2020
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  13. jim onion

    jim onion New Member

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    Add aspects of poetry into your prose, such as alliteration.

    For example: "Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo."

    And as others have already mentioned, vary your sentence length, phrasing, and structure.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2020
  14. jollyoldchap

    jollyoldchap Banned

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    Thanks for the information everyone.

    Where can I find more detailed information on this subject?

    You discussed the length of phrases; you said that when a phrase contains more words, a person reads them more quickly. But you referred to phrases as things between punctuation marks. What about things such a noun phrases, prepositional phrases, and verb phrases? Does that principle apply to them? I read a book that discusses rhythm in one of the chapters, saying that phrases length contributes to the rhythm of sentences. But the book doesn't go into much detail about this topic.

    You also said that longer words are pronounced more slowly. I think I understand that now.
     
  15. Rzero

    Rzero Reluctant voice of his generation Contributor

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    Sure, to a degree. It applies down to each word even. "prepositional" is read faster than "phrases."

    I think listening to yourself is far more important than any technical aspect you could examine. Vary length, as everyone keeps saying, but do so in ways that facilitate mood as well as flow. Just as in poetry, sometimes you want things staccato. Sometimes you want things slow and languid instead. Usually you want to break things up, of course. I'm just saying you should pay attention to pace as well.

    And speaking of listening to yourself, I would agree that reading aloud or having it read aloud to you is probably very helpful. I stammer when I read aloud though, so that's not a tool I use. What I find far more useful is taking a big break in between drafts. Several writing manuals I've read suggest leaving the project alone for six to eight weeks or even more before starting in on your first big reread. There are plenty of reasons for this, but I promise, there's nothing better for identifying verbal flow issues than fresh eyes and ears. That being the case, I would highly recommend not killing yourself to get this aspect just right the first time. It's so much easier to hear after a hiatus. Pay attention to it, experiment, write free-form poetry on the side, whatever it takes, but don't worry about perfect on your first run through.
     
  16. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    One trick I use is to imagine it being read aloud by a great speaker. Usually with a British accent. One of those great, almost Shakespearean actors like Ian McKellen or Anthony Hopkins.

    Another thing you want to do is, with all these tricks in mind, just write and write and write. Let it flow from the intuition—freewrite. Do this a lot. The idea is to practice and practice and let it flow freely from inside with no filter. Go ahead and let yourself do all kinds of crazy things—rhyming, alliteration, rhythm, any kind of tricks that occur without interrupting the flow of words out of the unconscious. After studying a lot of the techniques and practicing like this a lot your flow should become phenomenal.
     
  17. Seven Crowns

    Seven Crowns Moderator Staff Supporter Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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    I've read so many books on this, but it's hard to point you to one. There's little bits and pieces scattered everywhere, and I don't really have a book that's purely on sentence rhythms. Try these two books though. They're advanced books on sentence construction. They'll touch on rhythm as you're talking about it, but they go extremely deep on quite a few other subjects. They're building sentence flow, for sure. I've seen others books on sentence construction mentioned on this site, and they're on my shelf too, but IMO they're too concerned with using strange punctuation.

    "Building Great Sentences" by Brooks Landon
    "Artful Sentences: Syntax as Style" by Virginia Tufte

    (Some of my answers to you up above came from that first book.)

    I would consider these two semi-advanced. They're definitely not college texts written in weird grammar calculus like some books out there, so they're readable, but they're a ways past Grammar Girl and such. Not that I don't love Grammar Girl. Anyway, the end result is a paragraph that flows because the pieces connect nicely, and that's really what you're after. If your eyes roll back in your head, they may only be bearable in small doses.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2020
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  18. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

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    Read a lot of prose, see what you like, try to mirror it, go from there.

    It's one of those things that isn't instructionally coherent, like installing a dishwasher or pruning a bonsai tree. It's much more fluid and interpretative.

    Read how Faulkner and Hemingway constructed their sentences. And then check out what they had to say about each other's writing. Light years apart, those two.
     
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  19. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    ^ A good approach. Find writers with a flow you like and emulate them. Read their work, fill your head with it, and then write just like them. Do this for a few different authors.
     
  20. Seven Crowns

    Seven Crowns Moderator Staff Supporter Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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    The best sentence won't need to dress fancy, but it will need to love its neighbors.

    Your flow will appear in the seamless connections between sentences. It's all about contrasts, just like the rhythm of stressed and unstressed syllables. That's contrast too. And as strange as it seems, falling into a rhythm every now and then is part of the non-rhythm. (Because if the structures always shift, then that becomes the pattern.) Voice pushes it all farther, and the tension of story raises it even more.

    When flow gets talked about, this paragraph shows up a lot:

    The small locomotive engine, Number 4, came clanking, stumbling down from Selston with seven full wagons. It appeared round the corner with loud threats of speed, but the colt that it startled from among the gorse, which still flickered indistinctly in the raw afternoon, out-distanced it at a canter. A woman, walking up the railway line to Underwood, drew back into the hedge, held her basket aside, and watched the footplate of the engine advancing. The trucks thumped heavily past, one by one, with slow inevitable movement, as she stood insignificantly trapped between the jolting black wagons and the hedge; then they curved away towards the coppice where the withered oak leaves dropped noiselessly, while the birds, pulling at the scarlet hips beside the track, made off into the dusk that had already crept into the spinney. In the open, the smoke from the engine sank and cleaved to the rough grass. The fields were dreary and forsaken, and in the marshy strip that led to the whimsey, a reedy pit-pond, the fowls had already abandoned their run among the alders, to roost in the tarred fowl-house. The pit-bank loomed up beyond the pond, flames like red sores licking its ashy sides, in the afternoon’s stagnant light. Just beyond rose the tapering chimneys and the clumsy black headstocks of Brinsley Colliery. The two wheels were spinning fast up against the sky, and the winding engine rapped out its little spasms. The miners were being turned up.​

    I guess it's because DH Lawrence (the author) was offered a book contract from multiple companies after one editor read this paragraph. And after reading just the above, he accepted the short story. (What's really funny is that Lawrence didn't know his work had been submitted, someone else sent it in for him because he was afraid to, and now he had a book deal!)

    Anyway, it's a great example example of syntactic symbolism, where the shape of the sentence (and its phrase lengths) mirror the motion being described. Notice where the commas fall. It mirrors the passing of train cars.

    The trucks thumped heavily past, one by one, with slow inevitable movement, as she stood insignificantly trapped between the jolting black wagons and the hedge . . .
    The first sentence does something similar with hesitation. It uses an appositive and then two -ings just to get those comma pauses for effect.

    The small locomotive engine, Number 4, came clanking, stumbling down from Selston with seven full wagons.​
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2020
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  21. jollyoldchap

    jollyoldchap Banned

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    Well, if I use syntactic symbolism in my writing, won't I need to alter the rhythm every time the topic changes? And if I do that, will I still be able to maintain a consistent style throughout my piece?

    Let's say, for instance, that I want to write in a style that resembles music, not sounding like a song, but having all the qualities of music. Will I, within that style, which is by nature without syntactic symbolism, be able to use syntactic symbolism, not breaking the style of the piece? Or is the music itself a form of syntactic symbolism, slow rhythms fitted to sadness, stately rhythms fitted to majesty, etc?
     
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  22. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    ^ Why not just try it and see? It seems like you're overthinking it (but then I'm a very intuitive writer).
     
  23. Que

    Que Active Member

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    Lots of good advice here. You can start with scansion, the mechanical approach to flow and rhythm, then let the sound influence your prose. Things really change when you hear yourself reading a sentence aloud.
     
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  24. jollyoldchap

    jollyoldchap Banned

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    I have tried many times to form rhythm with metrical feet, but I could not build rhythm out of such small units. I think that attending to each phrase as I write gives me much more success. But I hardly attend to my syntax anymore when I write. Lately, I've been trying to use verbs and nouns as much as possible, instead of adjectives and adverbs. That is the new principle I've been trying to apply in my writing. I have not esteemed rhythm that much of late, although I still want to achieve it.

    Now when should I use adjectives and adverbs in a sentence? It seems nearly impossible to avoid using them altogether. I would have to avoid using such words as "impossible".
     
  25. Que

    Que Active Member

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    This thread is about flow, but I would like to respond to your comment about adjectives and adverbs. One of the things I learned, at least for myself, was to focus on how I want my readers to respond, not on whether I followed some rule. Some writers, typically beginners, tend to apply rules absolutely. One example is Anton Chekhov, who supposedly told us to never use adjectives and adverbs because that constitutes telling. Anton did not say that. He told us to "Cross out as many adjectives and adverbs as you can." Below is a paragraph that could be more concise with fewer adverbs and adjectives. Which ones would you strike out?

    Little Tommy pedaled his younger sister's old JC Higgins bicycle to her elementary school as quickly as he could, hoping he'd get there before any of his friends saw its girly-pink seat and sissy-blue ribbons twirling conspicuously from the bent handlebars.

    Limiting the number of adjectives and adverbs controls the range of responses your readers will have to what you've written. And that makes it more likely they will respond as you intended. Chekhov told us to use them sparingly and skillfully so we are not too general or too specific. Being too specific is using too many adjectives or adverbs. That's like walking your dog on a short leash--your readers won't be free enough to bring your words to life with their own imagination and intellect. Being too general is using too few adjectives or adverbs. That's like walking your dog on a long leash--your readers will entertain too many associations and wander off the path you want them on.
     
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