1. Spencer1990

    Spencer1990 Contributor Contributor

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    Second-Person and...

    Discussion in 'Word Mechanics' started by Spencer1990, Feb 20, 2017.

    Why we hate it.

    Okay, maybe some of us don't hate it (me), but I'm wondering why it gets so much flak.

    One of the major arguments I've heard is that the character is acting in a way the reader never would, and therefore has a hard time immersing in the story. That's fair. I can totally see that.

    For me, though, I don't seem to care if the "you" in the story does something I would never do. The pronouns seem to become invisible to me. I'm not sure why this is. The POV, when done well, allows me to just experience the story, somewhat, as a character in a story would.

    Another theory as to the hatred is unfamiliarity. I think there's a number of people who just don't see it very often or ever and associate it with a Choose Your Own Destiny type novel. That's also a fair point.

    I don't know why I'm attracted to the tense, and I'm still unsure if I would ever attempt a novel in 2nd. What I have written, mostly, is flash fiction. Does anyone think less than a thousand words plays a part in whether or not readers will accept 2nd person? Is it like dinner with your mother-in-law? Slightly enjoyable for a short time, but unbearable after more than an hour?

    I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this.
     
  2. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

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    I can feel it for the flash fiction (I really liked the one you did) and short shit, but for a whole novel? I don't know. I don't read it and feel that You is Me, and I doubt I would be turned off if You did something that Me would never consider. I guess I would have a hard time attributing You to actually mean Me. I would view You as the generic you. It might work, and in the hands of the right author it could be fucking brilliant, but I think I would struggle with it. I would have trouble knowing how to frame it. And I can't picture people talking about how great a character You was. Or how when the movie comes out we should get Amy Adams or Sylvester Stallone to play You. It just feels weird, but I think there's a great opportunity there for some writer that wants to explore it.
     
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  3. PercyWolfgang

    PercyWolfgang New Member

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    I really like it, but I think the reason I like it is because it is so rare and sort of taboo. I like writing or any form of media that challenges the norms. I still think it should be used sparingly, but when done right it can have a really heavy effect on not just the reader, but the story itself.

    With regards to a full novel in second person, it would be hard to hold that effect over such a long time, but I'm sure it can be done somehow.
     
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  4. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    Second person is fine, if done well. Nick Sagan did it for certain POV characters. I think Charles Stross did a whole novel in second person.
     
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  5. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    I feel like a broken record, but...

    Bright Lights, Big City, for me, worked mostly because it was in second person. In first person I would have felt like the MC was self-pitying/self-indulgent; in third person I would have felt like the MC was an annoying, pathetic loser. In second person I felt like I was out of control, doing things "I" would never do in real life... and I think that's just how the narrator of the story felt.

    It was really effective, at least for me.

    So... I buy into the "unfamiliar" aspect of why some readers don't like second person. But I have absolutely no problem with it myself.
     
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  6. Spencer1990

    Spencer1990 Contributor Contributor

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    I'm glad you liked my piece. I appreciate that. I question for a whole novel, as well. I can't think of any novel written entirely in second person. Just certain characters as @Steerpike mentioned. I'd be interested to try it someday.

    Though, I don't think it translates to film. The enormous flop that was Hardcore Henry kind of proved that. In all the longer stories I've read, the character gets named in a way that I usually don't in my flash pieces. I don't know about the examples given by Mr. Pike, but in the two I'm thinking of, the You is being addressed by another character in the story. Maybe that's a good way to do it. I don't know.

    I totally agree here. I think I love it so much because it's not done very often. And, yeah, it would be hard to maintain that effect for a novel. Maybe worth a try, someday, though.

    Can you think of any examples that are entirely in second?
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2017
  7. Spencer1990

    Spencer1990 Contributor Contributor

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    I actually ordered that book because you mentioned it in another thread and I liked what I saw in the Look Inside feature.

    I think there is something to be said for the particular story. Like, I'm not sure that a McCarthy style, mostly objective POV would work very well. I think it could be totally monotonous.

    And I think there's extra attention on the narrative voice in 2nd. It has to be interesting and add something to the story, rather than just a vehicle through which a story is told (and here, again, I'm thinking of McCarthy).

    EDIT: Bolded is a lie. I haven't actually ordered it yet, but it's in my shopping cart...which is basically the same thing.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2017
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  8. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    I think Halting State, by Charles Stross, was entirely in second person.
     
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  9. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    I don't "hate" it, but I do very much get this: One of the major arguments I've heard is that the character is acting in a way the reader never would, and therefore has a hard time immersing in the story.

    When I read in second all I keep thinking is, "Uh, no, actually, I'm not doing that," and that doesn't make for a great reading experience.

    Like @Homer Potvin I can deal with a lot of things in flash or short fiction that I can't in novels. Extreme stream of consciousness, 100% dialogue, second person... all these things are okay for 10 minutes, but would be exhausting for me to read 80,000 words of.
     
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  10. SethLoki

    SethLoki Retired Autodidact Contributor

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    Other than a book bent on world domination by mass hypnosis, I've been trying to think of a scenario that'd actually warrant being written 2nd person, rather than it being a stylistic choice.

    I imagined a bedside devotee/partner to an MC in a coma. Prognosis on waking (if at all (will they won't they...)) being memory loss. The devotee decides on telling them their life through the longs hours of ventilators, pipping machines, and angst-ridden waiting. 2nd person past?

    Anything else spring to mind?
     
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  11. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    Well, I think "stylistic choice" would apply to most writing decisions, really....
     
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  12. SethLoki

    SethLoki Retired Autodidact Contributor

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    Okay, lends itself to being written in second...
     
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  13. Spencer1990

    Spencer1990 Contributor Contributor

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    I think it's less about the plot and more about what kind of narrative voice you want to achieve, frame, meaning you want to convey to the reader. It's the same way you could tell a story in first or third, but they each have a unique feel to them.

    I think there's something to be achieved in second that can't in first or third, and I find it strange that it's mostly overlooked.

    This might be a stretch for some, but for me, it's like not using dashes as punctuation. 2nd person is a tool to make meaning in narrative, just like dashes are a tool to connect words in a way that commas, periods, and semicolons can't.
     
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  14. SethLoki

    SethLoki Retired Autodidact Contributor

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    Could be the wider usage of the other POVs has a monopolising influence on aspirant writers. A conditioning effect in that we're dosed by it so much that we pass it on. Just mooting.

    I can speak first hand though on how difficult I found the experience when I tried it myself. I went for an 18 Chapter Transylvanian lark; where my MC was held in a cult ((yeah, groan, a blood-sucking one) in a big bunker). The aim was to impart/project the Stockholm syndrome felt by the character...on to the reader. The manuscript's in my big bunker of abandonments. I simply got lots of doubts about how prescriptive I was sounding and got very tired of typing 'you, you, you'.

    That's the reason for piping up in this thread, thinking if anyone's to do it—reach for a story that it'd suit in order to have a better chance of seeing it through.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2017
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  15. Spencer1990

    Spencer1990 Contributor Contributor

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    I'd like to think that any story could be handled well in second with a deft hand. It's just different from first and third.
     
  16. SethLoki

    SethLoki Retired Autodidact Contributor

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    Might be a timesaver to trial something. Poss, rewrite a chapter or two of your own prior making, with a bit of ad-lib to sharpen one's nib. Or pick a book, any book—see how it reads once converted?
     
  17. Spencer1990

    Spencer1990 Contributor Contributor

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    Yeah, I'm not sure I'll ever try a novel in second. Maybe, someday. Now, I'm just slightly obsessed with it for flash and shorts, which I'm sure will pass and I'll read these stories in three years and cringe at how fuckin' stupid I was.
     
  18. SethLoki

    SethLoki Retired Autodidact Contributor

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    Have you got anything you've done already? @Spencer1990 I'd be interested to see
     
  19. Spencer1990

    Spencer1990 Contributor Contributor

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    Yeah. There's one in the workshop...

    https://www.writingforums.org/threads/same-day-different-shit.150410/

    And I have a few more that I'm probably not going to put in the workshop, but if you're interested, I could PM one of 'em.
     
  20. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    Second person isn't you doing it, unless it's something like a choose your own adventure. It's a character, just like with any other POV.
     
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  21. SethLoki

    SethLoki Retired Autodidact Contributor

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    Unless it's close second * touches temple with index finger * @Steerpike you will agree with me that that's absolute mind control.
     
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  22. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    Yes, I think that's an aspect of it. Nick Sagan used it for one POV character who was a bit unhinged. It was effective at putting the reader in the thought process.
     
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  23. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    I know. I'm not fick.
     
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  24. Spencer1990

    Spencer1990 Contributor Contributor

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    Is that BrE for thick? o_O
     
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  25. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    Yes. :D I'm so fick I understand neither spelling or writing (apparently).
     
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