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  1. izzybot

    izzybot (unspecified) Contributor

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    Izzy is bad at punctuation

    Discussion in 'Word Mechanics' started by izzybot, Apr 13, 2018.

    Here's my sentence at current (excuse the snippet but I don't think context matters):

    Ishmael’s gut said shoot him now.​

    I'm probably just being insane, but as soon as I typed it I realized there's about half a dozen other ways I could punctuate this, and I couldn't figure out which one was best, and the question is now eating my brain.

    Ishmael’s gut said shoot him now.
    Ishmael’s gut said Shoot him now.
    Ishmael's gut said, shoot him now.
    Ishmael’s gut said, Shoot him now.
    Ishmael’s gut said: shoot him now.
    Ishmael’s gut said: Shoot him now.
    Ishmael's gut said: shoot him now.
    Ishmael's gut said: Shoot him now.​

    Obviously I could also go with something like "Ishmael’s gut said to shoot him now" and eliminate the problem entirely, but that doesn't have the punch I'm looking for. I also ruled out quotes because it's clearly not a direct quotation -- the fact that it's not is what's tripping me up, because I know how to do those.

    Are any of them the most technically correct? Are all of them (or at least some of them) and it's just up to style? I'm fine with throwing technicality under the bus for the sake of style, but I want to know when I'm doing it.
     
  2. Iain Aschendale

    Iain Aschendale Lying, dog-faced pony Marine Supporter Contributor

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    Gut-shooting him isn't an option?

    Sorry, I share your weakness here :(
     
  3. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    This is what I'd go with. It's unspoken dialogue, so I would punctuate it like dialogue minus the speech marks.

    If anyone has the Chicago Manual of Style, perhaps they'll look up what it has to say on the matter?
     
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  4. Iain Aschendale

    Iain Aschendale Lying, dog-faced pony Marine Supporter Contributor

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    It's italics for thoughts is what it is. If only that was covered somewhere...
     
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  5. izzybot

    izzybot (unspecified) Contributor

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    Unspoken dialogue makes sense. I actually did find a thing referencing CMoS that's kind of helpful if I can get over my disdain for style guides in general.
     
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  6. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    :D

    I don't think this is a thought, actually. I mean, it is, but if we take the saying at face value, his gut is actually speaking to him.
     
  7. izzybot

    izzybot (unspecified) Contributor

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    Aha -- so what do the style guides have to say about telepathy? That's clearly what we're dealin' with.
     
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  8. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    "We're written by 98-year-old white men. Stop with this silly sci-fi nonsense."
     
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  9. Iain Aschendale

    Iain Aschendale Lying, dog-faced pony Marine Supporter Contributor

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    I am Jack's irritable bowel....
     
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  10. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Playing around with this a bit:

    Ishmael’s gut said shoot him now.
    Ishmael’s gut said Shoot him now.
    Ishmael's gut said, shoot him now.
    Ishmael’s gut said, Shoot him now.
    Ishmael’s gut said shoot him now.
    Ishmael’s gut said: Shoot him now.
    Ishmael's gut said: shoot him now.
    Ishmael's gut said: Shoot him now.

    My own preference would be the first one, if you're using italics. Ishmael’s gut said shoot him now.

    If you're not using italics, I think I'd prefer this one. Ishmael’s gut said: shoot him now.

    Given a choice, I'd pick the italicised one. It's simple, there isn't any doubt what is meant, and no slightly formal colon to weaken the impact.

    I would definitely not use the cap letter in any of the cases, unless you plan to use actual quotation marks. Without quote marks, this is neither a direct quote nor the start of a sentence. It confuses the eye, because the eye is trained to see a cap letter in the middle of a sentence as some kind of proper noun.

    I'm not following any style guide with this, by the way. It's just how I would do it, if I were the writer in creative writing mode. I think you can bend rules—if there are any—in this kind of an untypical situation. Do what is least confusing and reads best.
     
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  11. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    2p.png
    .. and for what it's worth, I'm with option one. To me it doesn't feel like internal dialogue. It's being engaged figuratively. I like the italics for its emphatic dynamic, but the way you've phrased it, it just doesn't feel like an instance of internal dialogue. It's more tenuous and instinctual than words in one's head, the way you've phrased it.
     
  12. GiveMeBackMyMagic

    GiveMeBackMyMagic Member

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    I concur with the above reasoning on 'Ishmael's gut said, Shoot him now.'

    I also quite like 'Ishmael's gut said: Shoot him now.' I think that's quite a cool style choice.

    I think it definitely needs a capital letter and some form of punctuation.
     
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  13. izzybot

    izzybot (unspecified) Contributor

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    Well this hasn't been definitive at all :D
     
  14. GiveMeBackMyMagic

    GiveMeBackMyMagic Member

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    I think the moral of the story is that we're all as clueless as each other so do what the heck you want :D
     
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  15. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    Nono, Izzy has to pick a favourite forumer and do what they say. *stares hard at Izzy*
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2018
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  16. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

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    This is a contextual question, so context is anything. The right sentence will be determined by all sentences surrounding it. If you're already in a prescriptive, monologue-ish vibe, then a plain "Shoot him now" would work. If there's some debate as to which course of action Ishmael should take, then the "gut" exception would work to separate that choice from others. I'd only use the italics if the sentence is surrounded by things that aren't direct thoughts and the sentiment is intended to break through the "noise."

    But all that aside, I'd do: Ishmael's gut said to shoot him now. Adding extra punctuation and slanty words would seem to detract from the sentence's mission, in my opinion.
     
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  17. Mink

    Mink Contributor Contributor

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    I'd go with the first sentence. It's what I would do and it's what I've seen others do.
     
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  18. Laurin Kelly

    Laurin Kelly Contributor Contributor

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    I'd probably avoid the thought attribution (is that even a thing?) because I always feel like I'm on shaky ground there. I'd go with:

    "Ishmael knew what his gut was telling him. Shoot him now."
     
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  19. izzybot

    izzybot (unspecified) Contributor

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    Completely off-topic, but 'wandering eye' just makes me think of this music video (relevancy comes in at about 1:15). I can't read or use that phrase anymore without taking it literally, hahah.

    Good points about the context. I wanted a grammatically correct answer to inform in what way I'd most likely end up breaking the rules anyway, but it seems like there's not one. So I guess I can do whatever I want! :twisted: And everyone's perspectives on the different methods helps me choose the best fit.
     
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  20. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

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    Yeah, the thing is "grammatically correct" has nothing on "grammatically appropriate" in most cases, in my opinion. Besides the basic elements of grammar (tenses, parallel structure, comma splices, word usage, etc) so much depends on the vibe of the text. If "correct" was the end all be all, Faulkner and McCarthy would have been laughed from the stage. Those cats don't even use commas, apostrophes, or quotes when they don't feel like it. Or periods in Faulkner's case... he went like thirty pages without one in The Bear I think. So definitely do what you want, but prepare to revise to fit whatever parameters arise later.
     
  21. Andrae Smith

    Andrae Smith Bestselling Author|Editor|Writing Coach Contributor

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    I agree with @jannert and @Wreybies on the context of the sentence. It is beig said figuratively, unless Ishmael’s stomach has its own mind. :confused: o_O So, I don’t believe that quotes or colons are necessary. Personally, I think it is a matter of style whether you use italics. I think the meaning is just as clear whether you write “Ishmael’s gut said shoot him now,” or “Ishmael’s gut said shoot him now.

    Regarding what is grammatically correct, what you have to remember with creative writing, particularly fiction, is that a talented writer can forgoe some rules for clarity or effect. That is not to say the rules aren’t important. They are. But they are a standard.

    In my experience, good writers learn to identify where a certain standard may in fact become a drawback. What is important is that you make a decision and remain consistent.
     
  22. John Calligan

    John Calligan Contributor Contributor

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    I’d go with:

    Ishmael’s gut said shoot him now.

    I think it looks perfectly fine with nothing.

    Because I think this sort of thing works:

    Ishmael looked at the creep. He should shoot him now.
     
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