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  1. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    Making Etymology Fun

    Discussion in 'Word Mechanics' started by Xoic, Oct 12, 2022.

    Just ran across this video tonight and enjoyed it quite a bit. He breaks down the actual etymological origins of a few commmon job-related words—Butcher, Baker and Candlestick Maker, which turn out to derive from some unexpected sources.

     
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  2. Louanne Learning

    Louanne Learning Happy Wonderer Contributor Contest Winner 2022 Contest Winner 2024 Contest Winner 2023

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    Interesting video. Thanks for sharing. Fascinating to see how language evolves.
     
  3. Louanne Learning

    Louanne Learning Happy Wonderer Contributor Contest Winner 2022 Contest Winner 2024 Contest Winner 2023

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    The origin of phrases is interesting, too. Yesterday, I got this in my inbox: Why Do We Say We're 'In a Pickle'?

    Seems the oldest allusion dates to 1562: "Man is brickell. Freilties pickell. Poudreth mickell, Seasonyng lickell."

    In this quote, the author John Heywood is saying that man is brittle, or frail, and that frailties pickle, or keep, like pickled foods do.

    By 1585 (John Fox in a sermon he gave on 2 Corinthians) the meaning is closer to how we use it today: In this pickle lyeth man by nature, that is, all wee that be Adams children.

    By 1711 - author Richard Steele - I am ashamed to be caught in this Pickle.

    When Shakespeare used it, in the Tempest, he meant it as to be drunk. How cam'st thou in this pickle?/ I have bin in such a pickle since I saw you last.

    Today, pickle in the UK is what we call relish, so to say "in a pickle" in the UK means "to be in a mess" where in North America it means in a difficult situation.
     
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  4. Louanne Learning

    Louanne Learning Happy Wonderer Contributor Contest Winner 2022 Contest Winner 2024 Contest Winner 2023

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    Because I am writing a historical piece, I write with Etymology online open. I just looked up a word and was surprised to find out its origin. I had never put two and two together!

    nightmare (n.)

    c. 1300, "an evil female spirit afflicting men (or horses) in their sleep with a feeling of suffocation," compounded from night + mare (n.3) "goblin that causes nightmares, incubus."
     
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  5. Naomasa298

    Naomasa298 HP: 10/190 Status: Confused Contributor

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    Shakespeare did it. Whatever it was.

     
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  6. Louanne Learning

    Louanne Learning Happy Wonderer Contributor Contest Winner 2022 Contest Winner 2024 Contest Winner 2023

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    Lol
     
  7. Louanne Learning

    Louanne Learning Happy Wonderer Contributor Contest Winner 2022 Contest Winner 2024 Contest Winner 2023

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    In the 17th century, there were several adjectives to go with sarcasm: sarcasmical, sarcasmous, sarcastical

    Only sarcastic endured.
     
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  8. Louanne Learning

    Louanne Learning Happy Wonderer Contributor Contest Winner 2022 Contest Winner 2024 Contest Winner 2023

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    It's a beautiful autumn day here. The sun is shining.

    The word autumn has been used since the 16th century. Before that, it was autumpne (14c) which derived from the old French autumpne, automne (13c.), which came from Latin autumnus.

    Fall
    in the sense of "autumn" is by 1660s, short for fall of the leaf (1540s).
     
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  9. Also

    Also Student of Humanity Supporter

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    I'm surprised the source does not say succubus, which I understand to be female, rather than incubus, which I understand to be male.

    Swedish has sat+mara, "female devil," in which we see mar- as a female other than equine.
     
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  10. Louanne Learning

    Louanne Learning Happy Wonderer Contributor Contest Winner 2022 Contest Winner 2024 Contest Winner 2023

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    Good point! So I had to look it up. According to Etymology online, an incubus is:

    "imaginary being or demon, credited with causing nightmares, and, in male form, consorting with women in their sleep," c. 1200, from Late Latin incubus (Augustine), from Latin incubo "nightmare, one who lies down on (the sleeper)," from incubare "to lie upon"
     
  11. Louanne Learning

    Louanne Learning Happy Wonderer Contributor Contest Winner 2022 Contest Winner 2024 Contest Winner 2023

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    laconic (adj.)

    "concise, abrupt," 1580s, literally "of or pertaining to the region around ancient Sparta in Greece, probably via Latin Laconicus "of Laconia," from Greek Lakonikos "Laconian, of Laconia," adjective from Lakon "person from Lakonia," the district around Sparta in southern Greece in ancient times, whose inhabitants famously cultivated the skill of saying much in few words.

    When Philip of Macedon threatened them with, "If I enter Laconia, I will raze Sparta to the ground," the Spartans' reply was, "If."

    https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=laconic
     
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  12. Naomasa298

    Naomasa298 HP: 10/190 Status: Confused Contributor

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    The original meaning of the word saboteur or sabotage was to make, or one who makes, sabots, a type of wooden clog worn by factory workers.

    It was only later that it took on its modern meaning, and that did not, as sometimes attested, due to the act of throwing sabots into machines to, ahaha, sabotage them.
     
  13. Friedrich Kugelschreiber

    Friedrich Kugelschreiber marshmallow Contributor

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    les sabots, le bonnet rouge, le pantalon, le carmagnole...truly a striking costume
     
  14. Louanne Learning

    Louanne Learning Happy Wonderer Contributor Contest Winner 2022 Contest Winner 2024 Contest Winner 2023

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    The word story, meaning "connected account or narration of some happening," can be traced back to the Latin storia, shortened from Latin historia "history, account, tale, story"

    The word "story" referring to a floor of a building has the same root. "Perhaps so called because the front of buildings in the Middle Ages often were decorated with rows of painted windows" [Barnhart].
     
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  15. Louanne Learning

    Louanne Learning Happy Wonderer Contributor Contest Winner 2022 Contest Winner 2024 Contest Winner 2023

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    Today I read in a book that the terms mummy and mummification can be traced back to the ancient Persian word for bitumen, which was used in the mummification process.

    So, I went to etymology online:

    late 14c., mummie, "medicinal substance prepared from mummy tissue," from Medieval Latin mumia, which is perhaps from Greek moumia or directly from Arabic mumiyah "embalmed body," from Persian mumiya "asphalt," from mum "wax."

    I believe asphalt and bitumen were the same thing.

    The sense of "dead human body embalmed and dried after the manner of the ancient Egyptians" is recorded in English from 1610s.

    https://www.etymonline.com/word/mummy?ref=etymonline_crossreference
     
  16. JLT

    JLT Contributor Contributor

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    For other interesting reading on the subject, I refer you to Robert Claiborne's book Loose cannons & red herrings : a book of lost metaphors. Claiborne is also the author of Our Marvelous Native Tongue : the life and times of the English language and The roots of English : a reader's handbook of word origins.

    His writing is always a rewarding read, no matter what subjects he's covering.
     
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  17. Also

    Also Student of Humanity Supporter

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    I once read a book by a purported expert on language and gender who was explaining man-speak to women. She wrote that a "loose cannon" obviously wouldn't be very accurate, since it wasn't secured firmly.

    With guidance like that...
     
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  18. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    I recently became obsessed with figuring out the many meanings of the word bill. How can it be how much you owe a person or company, and also the thing you pay them with, plus a billboard, and a handbill and a bill of larder lading? A meaning was sneakily lurking in there, and I kind-of sort-of had it figured out, but had to check and found this:

    bill (n.1)
    [written statement] late 14c., "formal document; formal plea or charge (in a court of law); personal letter," from Anglo-French bille, Anglo-Latin billa "a writing, a list, a seal," from Medieval Latin bulla"decree, seal, sealed document," in classical Latin "bubble, boss, stud, amulet for the neck" (hence "seal"); see bull (n.2).

    The sense of "written statement detailing articles sold or services rendered by one person to another" is from c. 1400; that of "order addressed to one person to pay another" is from 1570s. The meaning "paper intended to give public notice of something, exhibited in a public place" is from late 15c. The sense of "paper money, bank-note" is from 1660s. The meaning "draft of a proposed statute presented to a legislature" is from 1510s.


    bill (n.2)

    [bird's beak] Old English bill "bill, bird's beak," related to bill, a poetic word for a kind of sword (especially one with a hooked blade), from Proto-Germanic *bili-, a word for cutting or chopping weapons (see bill (n.3)). Used also in Middle English of beak-like projections of land (such as Portland Bill).


    bill (v.1)

    "to send someone a bill of charge," 1864, from bill (n.1). Related: Billed; billing.

    bill (n.3)

    [ancient weapon] Old English bill "sword (especially one with a hooked blade), chopping tool," from Proto-Germanic *bili-, a word for cutting or chopping weapons (compare Old Saxon bil "sword," Middle Dutch bile, Dutch bijl, Old High German bihal, German Beil, Old Norse bilda "hatchet"), possibly from PIE root *bheie- "to cut, to strike" (source also of Armenian bir "cudgel," Greek phitos"block of wood," Old Church Slavonic biti "to strike," Old Irish biail "ax").


    bill (v.2)

    "to stroke beaks," as doves do, hence, of lovers, "caress fondly," 1590s, from bill (n.2)). Paired with coo at least since 1764; Century Dictionary [1902] defines bill and coo (by 1768) as "to kiss and caress and talk nonsense, as lovers." Related: Billed; billing.
    I'm guessing the bill of a cap is related to a bird's bill? Unless I missed it in there somewhere.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2023
  19. Hammer

    Hammer Moderator Staff Supporter Contributor

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    In the UK the Bill -- or Old Bill -- also refers to a police officer/force. There are many theories why, but I am not aware of a definitive reason
     
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  20. Louanne Learning

    Louanne Learning Happy Wonderer Contributor Contest Winner 2022 Contest Winner 2024 Contest Winner 2023

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    And then there's Bill from William. A little bit of research turned up the following:


    Bill for William remains out of the hundreds there once were, as well as Bob for Robert and Dick for Richard.
     
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  21. Catriona Grace

    Catriona Grace Mind the thorns Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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    That is so interesting, Louanne. I've often wondered about such names. My father, brother, uncle, cousin, and nephew are all Williams/Bills, so naturally when my own son was born, I named him- Quinn. :D

    Now how about names like Molly and Polly for Mary?
     
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  22. Louanne Learning

    Louanne Learning Happy Wonderer Contributor Contest Winner 2022 Contest Winner 2024 Contest Winner 2023

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    According to the post I came across, Polly from Molly, and Molly from Mary, can be traced back to the same process.

    https://harrypotter.fandom.com/f/p/3100000000000134968#:~:text=%22William%20is%20sometimes%20shortened%20to,a%20name%20as%20rhyming%20slang.

    Hank from Henry

    Jack from John

    https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/24761/origins-10-nicknames
     
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  23. Louanne Learning

    Louanne Learning Happy Wonderer Contributor Contest Winner 2022 Contest Winner 2024 Contest Winner 2023

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    Years ago, I used to read online these very interesting 19th century books entitled Notes and Queries. All kinds of interesting little tidbits, many of an historical nature.

    If you'd like to have a look, here's a link to read online an edition from 1865 https://archive.org/details/notesqueries3821unse/page/n5/mode/2up

    I used to make notes as I read - whatever caught my fancy. Recently, I took out these notebooks and had another look. Something I came across (that was published in 1865):

    In Italian, the prefix s is equivalent to the English dis- or un-

    So for example, in Italian legare = to bind, and slegare = to unbind ... and slogare = to dislocate .... and from that we get the English word to slog = to fight

    Another example: lingua = language ... slingua = bad language .... from that we get the English word slang
     
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  24. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    My bad, it was a "Bill of lading", not of larder.

    A bill of lading is a document issued by a carrier to acknowledge receipt of cargo for shipment. Although the term historically related only to carriage by sea, a bill of lading may today be used for any type of carriage of goods.
    Source
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2023
  25. Catriona Grace

    Catriona Grace Mind the thorns Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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    Not too impressed with the mental floss article you included. Lots of conjecture there, and some clear misses. Most people associate Margaret with the old Persian word for pearl as it morphed into Greek and Latin and from there into French and English. However, Marguerite is also used as a word for daisy, as in Marguerite daisy, which makes the use of Daisy obvious and not "downright strange" at all. As for Jim falling out of favor due to the phrase "Jim Crow Laws," well, how then do we account for all those Jim Bobs and Billy Jims in my grandfathers' and father's times? ;) I even knew a Mary Jim, friend of my mother's who was named after her father.

    I love the etymology of personal names.
     
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