After looking through the "worst book you have ever read" thread I contemplated which readers and writers I should seek feedback from, and more importantly, which ones I might ignore feedback from. For instance, if one or more of the novels that inspired my story is/are excoriated by someone, should I avoid or ignore their feedback? Obviously their technical suggestions may have merit, but what of their story and character criticisms? If I've written something inspired by The Hobbit and The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, should I disregard the narrative advice from people I know dislike both of those books? I would think they aren't my audience.
I don’t know that I’d completely disregard, however I’d be inclined not to bother with such critique. If you know you’re writing something like “The Hobbit” and a potential critiquer didn’t get that book, or like it, or whatever, it’s probably a waste of time to have them critique your work.
I totally understand the desperate thirst for feedback. But would you not fear being steered in the wrong direction by those who can't appreciate your influences?
I think it's more important to consider where your feedback is coming from than to disregard it on any blanket grounds. It's really easy to say, "Well, they just didn't understand my work," but that's not going to help you improve your writing. You can't please everyone and obviously you shouldn't heavily revise your high fantasy novel after a sci-fi fan tells you they wish it had more space ships, but that doesn't mean their feedback is going to be completely useless to you. Generally, yes, I think it's important to get the opinions of your prospective audience. But I wouldn't write off the opinions of someone outside of it wholesale. You have to have a firm idea of what you're trying to communicate, and try to discern if that got through -- maybe they didn't like it, but that's different from not getting it, in my opinion.
I don't see your distinction but I don't feel the need to quibble over it. The takeaway is that you're appreciative of any and all feedback. To your point about being thin-skinned—I never expressed that I was. In fact, I would characterize myself as exceptionally thick-skinned. The point of my original post wasn't to spare myself severe criticism, but to to try and prevent bad advice from leading me astray. Surely that's a reasonable concern.
I think it is good to look for wide-ranging feedback. Input from people who write romance, or horror, or thrillers can be invaluable in a given work. But we're not talking about someone simply having experience or interest is a genre other than the one you're writing in. We're talking about someone who actively dislikes or doesn't understand a seminal work in your genre, and in the case of the OP a work that directly inspired what is being worked on. I'd question the ability of such a person to give you a valuable critique on the new work, and would rather spend the same time dealing with someone who gets it.
But I think that if you keep in mind the source of the advice, it's not that likely to lead you astray. Imagine that Joe says: "I'm not clear enough on why your protagonist does things. Explain more." The takeaway from this should not be, "Explain more." The immediate takeaway is, "Joe feels unclear on the protagonist's motives, and asks for more explanation." Now, maybe YOU, on hearing this, realize that it makes sense. Maybe you say, "Oh, right. Of course. That character is so much like Aunt Gwen that I have her do the things that Aunt Gwen would do. But the reader hasn't really gotten to know her. So I could explain, or I could have a scene where the reader gets to know her, or..." However, maybe your response is, "How much more obvious can it be?!" or "Of course you don't understand. You're not supposed to." Then you might have to put Joe's complaint on the shelf until you have a few more opinions. Maybe after some more opinions you conclude that readers like Joe don't have much tolerance for mystery about character motivation, but other readers do, so Joe is just not going to be one of your readers. But you still might have learned something else from Joe. Maybe he's the only one that noticed that the sun sets on the wrong side of your city, or the only one that could put his finger on why that child character is so annoying. Maybe Joe adores long, complex fight scenes, so that when HE says that your big fight at the end is too long, you know that it's REALLY too long. My WIP is going to be tagged as fantasy, whether I like it or not. Just this weekend I decided to give a chapter to a good friend who doesn't like fantasy, with rare exceptions. If she doesn't like it, that doesn't tell me much. If she does, that tells me a lot. (OK, it may just tell me that good friends give false praise to their friends. It depends on exactly what she says.)
IDK, I seem to have written something that is kinda counter to what the standard for it's intended genres are, so I have no bloody clue who my target audience is. Not that I have much of an audience to begin with. But I wouldn't mind criticism of my work from a reader, if they happen to have the time to actually give my book a read and offer their thoughts and ideas of it.
I agree. Unfortunately I can't imagine that many writers, specifically ones who struggle to get quality feedback, have impeccable criticism sorting skills. And when their skills fail them they'll likely be nudged off a more satisfying path. After looking through the "worst book you have ever read" thread I considered the writers who despise much or all of what I admire. That's when I asked myself: if they're turned off by nearly everything that turns me on, is there anything I can gain from them? My intuitions suggested no. But @ChickenFreak made a compelling case for giving them a fair shake. They may not appreciate my story or the works that influenced it, but they might offer up a nugget of interesting direction that no one else would have.
It might also help to get a lot of critiques if you're not that trusting of your own perspective on your work.
Yes, but there is a difference between not liking a certain type of story and not being able to distinguish between good and bad writing.
My betas are exclusively made up of people who actively read and/or write in my genre. I'm writing for a very specific audience, and going directly to that source is the most expedient for me.
I think there may be a useful distinction to make between "critique" and "offer feedback"? To me, a critique is something that comes from someone who's as good a writer as I am or a better writer than I am or someone who works in publishing at a level I aspire to, or someone who in some other way has the weight of authority behind their words. Feedback, at least for me, is something less technical, less authoritative, and more general. So... I would seek critique from anyone with relevant authority, regardless of their preferred genres. But I would try to seek feedback almost exclusively from people in my target audience or who otherwise have insight specific to the current project. When I wrote a YA romance series about hockey players, I got some teen readers and some teen hockey players to read my drafts - they were giving me feedback, but I wouldn't say they were in a position to offer critique. They don't know enough about writing to have anything valuable to say about technique or anything else, but they're very useful for telling me if they were engaged, if the characters felt real, etc. It ties in to @ChickenFreak's point about the writer sorting through critiques and pulling out the parts that are relevant. If a teenage romance reader tells me she doesn't like my hero, that's relevant; if she tells me I'm misusing semicolons, it's not relevant because she doesn't know what she's talking about. If a best-selling scifi author tells me he doesn't like my hero, it's not too relevant because he's not likely to ever like my heroes, but if he tells me I'm misusing semicolons, I probably want to take a look at that. (Although I am NOT misusing semicolons, damn it!)
I find in genres I don't typically read, I tend to be much more capable of finding the flaws (as I see them) in the story and how they make me react to it overall. So some of the more technical elements like continuity really get put under a microscope, and plot holes and deus ex machina moments are never missed. Though I am trying to get better at not noticing these things while trying to enjoy these different stories from what I am used too. But it is quite difficult since it is hard to gain investment in those types of stories, but I try anyway despite that. So far none have had the ability to really hook me in and blow my simple inept little mind.
Most of this has been said by several of the previous eminent posters. Of course it's relevant to seek input from your target audience. But there is a difference between a story and how it is told. The telling (hopefully some showing as well) is something you can get input from non target readers. There are even things common to all storytelling, all readers. If you fail there you will have no audience. If you look at it from the other side (my side) as giving critique. I don't read fantasy. I never read horror. I don't like dark stories. Still i have no problem finding things that could be better in many such stories. The bitter truth is that in the end you are alone. Take what you get, discard what's not relevant to you. It’s your story. You will have to decide. And keep writing. You will be better.
Both sides have good arguments here. On one hand, yes, if someone doesn't like the sort of the book you're striving to write, maybe their advice will be leading you astray. That's important to understand. On the other hand, if you're here, and you're unpublished, there's at least a decent chance that your novel has problems that aren't related to your vision, but to your execution. If the novel is boring on the paragraph level, it's boring on the paragraph level. If the writing is unclear, it's unclear. I don't need to be a fan of a werewolf romance to know that I'm having a hard time understanding what's going on at the page by page level. Maybe ideally, someone who is a fan of your subgenre will be the one pointing out the technical flaws, but if you're limited in technical critique, you should take it from wherever you can get it.
Take any feedback from those who are not the target audience with a grain of salt. You should never take on board feedback you do not understand. As a writer, you should know what you are trying to achieve and listen carefully if you’ve hit the mark. For me, often it’s what people don’t say that is important. I seek readers who I know would be enthused by the kind of stories I am interested in writing. Another thing to consider is, if you’re struggling to find people asking you to read your story, then there’s a bigger underlying problem. You should never need to trade reviews as far as I’m concerned. I’m not being arrogant here, but I don’t have trouble getting quality beta readers. An intelligent and quality reader’s feedback is gold to me. So it shouldn’t be a case where you take any feedback you can get. That’s just my perspective. You need to be selective as to who reads it. But I also have friends who write who have asked to read. I certainly value their time, but I don’t hold their feedback in as high regard. It’s always a bonus if I win them over. I’ve given critique to pieces I am not excited by. People have complimented me for it, but in my heart of hearts, I really didn’t care for their story. As far as I’m concerned, my feedback would not be as valuable as their target audience, which is not me. They should definitely ignore me.
Because people are mostly likely disinterested in you or your idea. So then you need to figure out why. I’m being blunt here. Do you struggle to find readers? To me, if you’re hearing nothing but crickets then there are problems. It’s common sense to me. I’m not trying to be rude here. Just honest. I consider myself highly unpopular, but I’ve honestly never had issues finding someone who wants to read, both online or in real life. That’s just how it’s always been. But I invest time in networking, I genuinely like to get to know people and understand what they like. I take an interest in people, because I want to attract the right readers. It’s not a review-for-review transaction for me. That’s the kind of stuff I avoid. I would prefer they read my stuff period, no strings, because they want to. The only person I force to read is my husband, but he’s told me he doesn’t mind. Maybe it’s because I always have him that I’m allowed to be more selective.
Disinterest in unknown and unaccomplished writers is the default position for most people in my experience. Folks tend to be parsimonious with their spare time, and wrangling quality readers away from the competition (and anything else that might occupy them) is often difficult. You're saying if someone struggles to find readers that's an indication of significant problems? I'm not sure that follows. One's social circle could lack a qualified critic of fiction. Mine does, and I can't imagine my circumstances are particularly rare. Of course one could fish for online readers, but depending on where you frequent that can be hit or miss. If you have an abundance of beta readers my hats off to you. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and presume it's because you're a top-notch storyteller. But I suspect there are capable writers out there struggling to be read, just like there are capable musicians out there struggling to be heard.
In my experience, the average man on the street doesn't clamor to read other people's unpublished novels, whether they're interesting or not. Where is it that you live, where apparently reading other people's manuscripts is a common and popular hobby--so common that the intersection of people that you trust, people interested in the genre of your novel, and people who want to read unpublished rather than published fiction, is substantial? Is your town purely a writer's colony? Or does it lack a library or bookstore or internet access, so that if people want reading material they have to get it from their neighbors?
Why is it a competition? It’s never felt like a competition to me. People do ask me and I like to engage people. They met me with the knowledge I write and with time they press me to give them a read. Sometimes I engage them with the goal of getting them as betas. Sometimes I engage them because they are interesting and offer a different perspective. A goal I set out with recently was to find female readers. I now have 3 ladies I am very keen on. I’ve gotten a good read on their taste level, I consider them friends. I trust their opinion. They’ve even surprised me. I recently discovered a girl at work would gladly read, she’s a younger romance reader but with very similar taste. Even my previous manager demanded I give her a chapter of my work. I didn’t really want her to read, but it’s hard to say no. I’m not desperate for betas, they just organically happen from interaction and discussion. I’m someone who is enthusiastic about my projects. I even chatter about my creative writing in job interviews, it’s helped me forward in the job process, it’s got me job interviews. I’m a female IT consultant btw, guess people don’t expect it. I remember talking to my interviewer about my experience on a Special Forces website. People are always interested to know more, and it’s always fun conversations. I use my writing as a bridge to relate. I don’t think it makes me a topnotch storyteller, I’ve been told I’m engaging when I talk about stuff I love. It’s not luck, I make an effort to meet new potential readers. Also, I don’t care to be the ‘capable writer’. I’d prefer to be the interesting one, relevant to my intended audience. What’s your definition of capable anyway? I don’t need your benefit of the doubt, I’m merely sharing you my experience. If you’re genuinely struggling to find readers you trust, then there are issues. That’s expected. But what those issues may be will be different depending on the writer. For me finding betas have always been a happy experience. Usually, they become friends. I wouldn’t trust my babies with just anyone.
