1. HeathBar

    HeathBar Active Member

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    "Just"

    Discussion in 'Word Mechanics' started by HeathBar, Oct 8, 2019.

    Would you just stop using just? I have 404 instances of "just" in my 102K WIP. They don't jump out at me until I run excerpts through the Hemingway app. I don't love Hemingway, but I find it's useful when I'm doing the tenth (ahem, twentieth?) read through to catch any lingering SPAG issues. Sometimes I can take them out and sometimes I can replace them with something like "only," but sometimes it's just not the same if they're not there. Anyone else experience this?
     
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  2. Mary Elise

    Mary Elise Senior Member

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    Oh yes, regularly both at work (technical/business writer & BSA at a tech company) and in my personal writing. I think everyone does that, which is why we have editors and others to point it out.

    At work I have a routine set up: run a Search and Replace on several words: just, that, and, this, etc. Sometimes the word is necessary but often not.

    Telling a senior manager their contribution to a RRFP contains too many "that's" is always fun. I win about half the time.
     
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  3. Cave Troll

    Cave Troll It's Coffee O'clock everywhere. Contributor

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    Well I did hear to not use it, or to use it extremely sparingly.
     
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  4. Tralala

    Tralala Active Member

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    Yes. I've kept a couple in my WIP novel (in dialogue, I think) , but mostly I get rid.

    I think of them as 'weakeners'.

    'Really' is another.

    For a while, I had a Post-It note of weakeners taped to my computer screen, and that just really helped. Doh!
     
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  5. Lifeline

    Lifeline South. Supporter Contributor

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    Yes, I am guilty of the same offense, or I would be if not...

    when I first write a sentence, it can have any number of issues. Just, there, was, adverbs,... all of which are okay to use them once in a while. Sentences with the same grammatical structure than the one previous, sentences beginning with a personal pronoun, and so on. But as soon as I read it again (which is immediately after writing it) or sometimes even while I am writing it, my editor brain kicks in and starts screaming and kicking. Then I reverse what I am writing. I don't get rid of all 'just's and all the other mistakes this way, but I can take care of a good junk.
     
  6. Some Guy

    Some Guy Manguage Langler Supporter Contributor

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    My MC is an 80s moron, so I do it on purpose. It works good. :D
     
  7. HeathBar

    HeathBar Active Member

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    Yes! And there’s the double offender “really just” . . . e.g., “I really just don’t know.” They seem to creep mostly in dialogue, which (I think) is less offensive because people are sloppy talkers. But, yeah.
     
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  8. Seven Crowns

    Seven Crowns Moderator Staff Supporter Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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    Word frequency for just is 1 out of 2000. So an 80k novel can have 40 justs and be perfectly normal. Of course that ignores dialog, where silly things can and should happen, and it's just a baseline, but yeah, ten times past the average tells you that something is wrong. So good catch!

    I'm struggling through a book right now that keeps using "suddenly," as if the hundredth time I read it it still has any weight. It's disgraceful because the author is very skilled (that author being Abe Kobo), but the translation is a joke. I think it was translated in the 1950's. Maybe that matters . . . I don't know. It has all the nuance of a high school essay. It's a shame when the story is smothered by the phrasing. Like a crib death.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2019
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  9. Mary Elise

    Mary Elise Senior Member

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    I am so bad about editing. At work I split completed sections into separate documents so I don't have to see it when I start again. Otherwise the team will find me grumbling over something they thought we finished last week.

    I've started doing the same at home. I can't count the hours I've spent reworking the same 5K words. ...
     
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  10. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Oh, that's one of my own 'weasel' words I have listed on my wall—along with somewhat, very, really, quite, etc.'

    When I've finished the first draft of something important, I run it through the find/replace thing, and make a judgement every time one crops up. I'm getting better at catching myself using them in the first place. :)
     
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  11. Mary Elise

    Mary Elise Senior Member

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    I'm astounded at how often they crop up. Crabgrass in the perfect lawn of my prose.

    (Okay so hyperbole there but you know what I mean. ...)
     
  12. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Crabgrass words. Indeed. I'll start calling them that. They do pop up like weeds, don't they? Said she,who spent part of this morning hacking back brambles and buddelia bushes (in the rain.) Yeegs... tomorrow the ivy.... Crabgrass hardly gets looked at around my house. I've got SERIOUS weeds.
     
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  13. HeathBar

    HeathBar Active Member

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    Yes, this. I still believe the reworking is making it better, but WOW. I never imagined the editing process would be so much work. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy it, but still shocked by how much time it takes. My WIP has been "finished" for over a year, but yet I'm still editing. But I'm close. I have a deadline of 10/31. Deadlines are good.

    I will also add "maybe" to the crabgrass list (e.g., "he had maybe four beers...").
     
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  14. Tralala

    Tralala Active Member

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    Oh no. I use 'maybe'
     
  15. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    No word should ever be on a "blacklist". It's always a case by case basis. It's always a good question to ask, though, if there's a better way - or rather, more effective way - something could be said. Usually there is. But if "just" conveys exactly what you want in a particular instance, keep it. However, don't keep it just because you like it. Keep it because it is the most effective way of conveying exactly what you want to convey. Be honest with yourself: is it?
     
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  16. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    I can't help but think that's a very ineffective way of editing. I can't imagine any purpose in that amount of tinkering with the details.

    Firstly, things like plot, pacing, transitions, characterisation etc should be the focus. Tinkering on 5000 words for hours and hours before all that big stuff is done is... well, sheer self-indulgence, honestly. I don't know about you, but I do the tinkering quite honestly because I enjoy it. It's not honestly needed. It's just satisfying to see a perfectly arranged paragraph that brings just the right image and just the right emotions. However, there needs to be a curb to this sort of self-indulgence because it's fairly unproductive if you do it for every 5k words in your manuscript.

    Secondly, even though you could argue that sort of tinkering could be beneficial assuming you've done all the big picture stuff and the story is basically polished, I'd still argue it's a bad idea. No manuscript can ever be perfect and you will keep improving, and improving, and that's exactly how things should be. All that would mean: no amount of tinkering is ever going to achieve anything that working on a new manuscript wouldn't.

    Don't get me wrong. Some attention absolutely needs to be paid to sentence-level quality and word choice, and that is how we improve. But to lose count of the hours over just 5k words - that's veering into unproductive self-indulgence.

    Added note: I don't mean to be criticising you. Please don't take it personally. I'm just commenting on the practice in general.
     
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  17. Mary Elise

    Mary Elise Senior Member

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    Absolutely accurate. I'm writing autobiographical stuff so it's a little different than fiction but when I realized just how many versions I have of that same section I decided I had to stop.

    You're absolutely correct and I need to hear it right about now. I'm working on a piece to send to a major publication. It's extremely sensitive and autobiographical in nature. I have to move on or I'll never submit it.
     
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  18. Mary Elise

    Mary Elise Senior Member

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    Wow, I've already made a significant contribution here? Didn't expect that but thanks!

    I can't criticize. Hubs is maintaining the yard now and he doesn't give a whit about any plant except sandspurs. Those things are evil and must be pulled up by the root before they go to seed. He'll stop the lawn tractor to dig those up. Crabgrass? I doubt he knows the difference between crabgrass and Bermuda.
     
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  19. JLT

    JLT Contributor Contributor

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    Yes. "Just" can be a useful word. "I had just finished the book when he visited" conveys something quite different from "I had finished the book when he visited." Keep it in the toolkit, but be aware that, like any word, it has to pull its weight to stay in. (As I re-read the second sentence here, the word "quite" leaps out at me. Is it pulling its weight?)
     
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  20. HeathBar

    HeathBar Active Member

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    Is there an online resource for word frequencies? I googled it but didn't find anything (one search; not exhaustive). I have lots of dialogue and suspect I'm going to come in above average even after editing, but would be curious to check it out.
     
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  21. Some Guy

    Some Guy Manguage Langler Supporter Contributor

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    Law of diminishing returns. Readers forgive if they're absorbed in the story.
     
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  22. Naomasa298

    Naomasa298 HP: 10/190 Status: Confused Contributor

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    Justin just didn't think the verdict was just. He asked the chief justice to justify it but he just refused. So he just went to the jousts instead.

    :D
     
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  23. Tralala

    Tralala Active Member

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    Brilliant!
     
  24. Seven Crowns

    Seven Crowns Moderator Staff Supporter Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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    There's lots of lists, but many of them are so statistics oriented that they're not immediately useful to a writer. They're interesting though because some of them are based on spoken words instead of written text.

    I use Google Ngrams because it's pretty easy to convert.
    Basically, you take your percent, 0.05% for just. Add a couple zeros to get rid of the percent (.0005) and multiply that by however many words you've written.
    .0005 * 5000 word short story = 2.5 justs (just, just, ju? LOL)
    .0005 * 80000 word novel = 40 justs

    There's all kind of tools to analyze what you've written. There's text profilers and NLP libraries (natural language processing) you can use to look at phrase counts and sentence structures at a very deep level. Some of these require coding though. You don't need those to just catch words, I guess. Someone should wrap those into a simple program for writers.

    IMO, most really damaging repetitions hide in the shape and purpose of the sentences. Bad writing relies on a limited arsenal. By definition, it has to. But you start with the words.

    I guess I should add a disclaimer again. Nobody writes by counting words. It's just to catch anomalies, which may or may not matter.
     
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  25. HeathBar

    HeathBar Active Member

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    Thanks, Seven Crowns. You didn't say there would be math involved?!? Seriously, though, this is helpful. That said, I totally agree with this:
    I'm not losing any sleep over it. I'm in what I hope to be a near-final round of edits --- the darlings have been killed, fluff removed, etc. I'm just really trying to maybe tighten the language even more, which is why I'm obsessing about justs and reallys and maybes.
     
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