Knife Fighting

Im looking for resources on knife fighting. My MC has been taught to defend herself by her father who used to be a soldier (fictional world).

I'd like to know terminology and techniques.
Where i keep going in circles is, i find articles and webpages on the TYPES of knife fighting, where they are practiced, and the history of it. It doesnt say HOW its done or technique names.

Ive tried focusing my search and picked a style (kali eskrima, for example).
I get a picture and the origin of it but now how to do the moves.

Currently, i have a "sword fighting manual for actors and directors" on my desk in front of me. It has pictures and step-by-step of what it should look like and the name of the technique (example "fig.15 the Scholar attempts to strike the Master using a straight jab, right hand still on the grip" etc).


Its VERY helpful to me... But its swords.
Knife fighting is different, i assume?

 

One technique I now knife fighters use is to hold the knife backwards, so the blade is laid along your forearm, and then basically slash at the opponent with it. You have to sort of punch past them and the blade slices into them as it passes. But I have no idea if there'a name for it or anything. I think the reason for it is to keep the opponent from being able to as easily grab it or knock it out of your hand. It's sort of like 'cuffing' a cigarette to hide it. I guess that's another reason for holding a knife that way—nobody sees it in your hand. You could walk through a crowd and not be noticed as easily.

 

That was the first scene i wrote with my MC... Then i realized i dint know much else besides that.

Slashing, jabbing.... Im getting kind of repetitive with those two, and to me, it reads unrealistic. Shes not an expert, though she was trained by a soldier, but shes still better than the average person.
I have another character that calls her form 'sloppy' and her technique 'rushed' but hes amazed by her skills nonetheless.

Thing is... To make his comments sound more realistic, i need more than slash, jab, and how to hold a knife

 

I don't know if knife fighters try to parry or block? It seems pretty impossible with such a small piece of steel, more likely you'd just get your hand cut off. I suspect it's mostly about ducking and dodging and avoiding the other person's slashes and jabs. And using other things as well, hand-to-hand techniques and kicks.

 

Would these videos help?

 

I'll have to watch them later (im not in a location to watch videos right now), but thanks!

 

Hope this helps.

If you want to see more click on the name of the profile of the one who uploaded this video . Or you can simply just go to Facebook and search for "Harimauberantaitv" .Sorry if it's not the Kali Escrima you are looking for. It's Silat.

 

In kali, someone serious will hold the knife so that it extends downward from the clenched hand, rather than upward like a sword; along the forearm like @Xoic said. Someone seriously serious will hold it like that but with the blade facing inward toward their own forearm.

 

Damn—that is serious!!

 

These were brutal (awesome)!
I think I can figure out how to put it into words. my MC doesnt find herself in a REAL fight until towards the end, but earlier on, she's sparring with her rival and goes through mock fights with her father and, when she tries to prove herself to join the guardsmen.
I have a scene where she fights the head guard because she thinks he's corrupt. she disarms him and stabs him in a place where she thinks she's killed him (she doesnt).
the videos were good with showing where one would stab to incapacitate someone, although @Keongxi , i think those moves were fatal (the first few minutes: body slash, neck stab, kidney stabby stab.... ).
I can use it later for another character who has no problem killing people

 

I think incapacitating moves with knives are predominantly slashes, aiming to either bleed out the opponent or else cut tendons.

 

It's important to note the failings of knives as well.

You really need to be a glutton for punishment if you get in a knife fight because the hand-to-hand is so close and quick with the lightness of knives that it tends to be a real bloody mess. You basically have to accept a good amount of bleeding if you're in that close with a target who has a similar weapon. All the technique in the world won't save you from at least a couple slashes or a jacked up finger on those short blades.

Another massive issue is the stick issue. Short blades have a nasty tendency to get caught up on bones or hard tissues. Ribcage stabs are often difficult to get the blade back out. And if you have any serrated edge, it's far less hopeful.

 

Hi J.T,

I know this is going to sound crazy but this is not advice for actual fighting or self defense!

I am a student of Krav Maga (Self defense based on Israeli Special Forces lethal force). Think of the Bourne Identity and that knife fight scene. It is that technique.

Its difficult to give you a straight forward answer as there aren't any names for techniques aside from block; so forearm block etc, but it must be understood that offering any part of your body to block a knife is almost guaranteed to be sacrificial! The reason there are not actual names is that as that hand to hand engagement is usually fast and over in moments. In that time you must both block and attack with a view to getting away. Although it must be said the military version is a form of deadly force with no intention of running away (as in Bourne).

Looking at the clip you will see that close engagement with or without a knife is likely to cause serious long term injuries or death. Also that such a fight would likely last mere seconds. Anybody that has been trained to defend themselves or if they had no choice to engage an attacker would be aware that it is:

1. All about avoiding a knife fight (situational awareness)
2. Knowing what to do if you have been attacked (awareness of anatomy: pressure points, major arteries etc)
3. Knowing what to do whilst engaging an attacker (look out for 2nd, 3rd attacker for example)

and IMO it is in that order. Awareness and preparedness is really important and the actual physical fighting is an excuse for the instructor to beat you up (and I pay him for this!) So for the purposes of a story, it would be credible for your character to be alert to danger, at least in certain situations.

I am very sure that your characters father would have:

Desensitized her to pain.
Taught her to look out for danger.
To sit with her back to the wall.
Notice who is in the room and what are they doing!
Work out where ALL the exits are in a establishment.
Taught her how to run from all postures: sitting, laying down, kneeling etc.
Taught her where to run.
Taught her when to run which is highly critical. (if its in close proximity to a knife attacker she may be stabbed in the back and totally unable to defend herself. Sometimes she'd best not run but fight)
In the event she had not had time to run then utilize objects to defend herself. For instance 4 legged chairs turned slightly to create a small distance.
To make premeditated decisions, for instance; should she run and lead the attacker toward or away from a crowd? (Is she a moral person)
To understand exactly what to do so that she is in control of the situation and not the attacker. She would have been drilled on this.

Ask yourself a question, if you have never been punched full force before, what does it feel like? Would you freeze, run, cry, submit? She would already be aware of her reaction as her dad would have drilled her on fighting and she would know how it feels.

The bit when an attacker stands two feet in front of her with a knife drawn is a whole different kettle of fish. There are many things she can do but it will likely end very badly so if she is going to be all James Bond about it, well good luck to her, its not realistic IMO. If the knife is drawn but not being used, if she reacts first she will almost definitely invite an attack.

So anyway, this is based on my limited experience. I am not SAS, a Paratrooper or a Navy Seal. I don't want to argue what is right or wrong and I am happy to concede that others may know more than me . I was thinking that my limited experience lends a different perspective which might be helpful.

Good Luck!

P.S. I didn't post a link to the fight scene as its on YouTube 'Bourne Identity Fight Scene due to its graphic nature.' If people fancy taking a look at Krav Maga type fighting then look up the clip, but be aware it is not the self defense version it is more lethal force. There is a fine dividing line lol.

 

This guy's channel talks a lot about situational awareness. Most of his videos aren't about knife attacks, they're security footage or bodycam footage of real attacks on innocent people and how they reacted, to help people learn how to defend themselves, and his biggest thing is situational awareness. Here's one that does involve knife attacks:

Spoiler: Video

Warning—2 people get randomly stabbed in this video. But this shows how sudden and unexpected a knife attack can be and how woefully unprepared most people are for any violence.

But if you watch a bunch of his videos you'll start to understand the drill. It's all about being aware of the situation you're in and having backup plans, having trained in self defense, and verbal judo, which means to talk so you're not antagonizing them but working 'with' them (also known as verbal jiu-jitsu). Also 'controlling the distance' between you and the attacker by various means.

My favorites are the "Off-Duty Brazilian Cop Stops a Robbery" videos. There's a lot of them. Apparently Brazil is completely overrun with street crime.

 

Xoic,

You are right, its all about keeping that distance and hundreds of meters away sounds safe enough to me! Once you are in engagement zone it is all down to chance. Training can help you make a breakaway moment but the real trick is keeping your head clear so you recognize such moments. When the adrenaline is pumping and you are fighting for your life, one can be forgiven for not thinking straight. That's when real time drills and training come into there own, although I have limited experience.

Having an instructor chase you in a locked gymnasium with a rubber knife (oh how they hurt!) really gets you focused. Then when his collage turns the lights off and chases you with night vision goggles... Its not fun lol. One thing I would add is that the adrenaline saps the oxygen out of your lungs and you end up a sitting duck in no time. Calm and focused wins the day - if one can manage it.

 

Wow! Thanks for your very detailed response!


I was going down your list thinking"check, yep, h's taught her that.... Wait... Not that one... Or that one...." So about at "taught her when to run" part and the stuff after that is where my "Father" character falls short on teaching (though i do have a scene where she escalates a fight and her rival scolds her for not knowing when to to fight and when to run away, so i guess that makes up for it).

My character is very sheltered. She's lived her whole life in a little island fishing village while her father and rival cone and go as they please. How she gets into fighting is, when she turned 6, she asked what the world was like outside of the island, and her father says "the world is cruel" so from that point on, he teaches her how to fight. At 20, she leaves the island for the first time and shes expecting the outside world to be this terrible place, and shes been learning to fight her whole life so shes super eager to get into some fights to prove to her dad "yeah, i can handle the real world"... So a lot of whats shes taught is kinda thrown to the wayside.

Before she leaves the island, she and her dad go through training where he hits her for the first time and knocks her flat on her back. Shes is shock and freezes up and her father tells her people can do a lot worse in the real world and she needs to know how to take a hit.

I'll google the scene you mentioned. One of my friends does krav, but i dont think ive ever seen it

 

Yes, and it also helps to watch a bunch of these videos, accustom yourself to it, and understand how sudden and unexpected an attack will be. I mean for self-defenders, and also for writers.

When I wanted to know what the life of a warrior is like I started watching female MMA fights. That's strange, because we're not accustomed to seeing women beat each other up, or be able to take a lot of physical punishment. More so than watching the men, it makes you see the realities in a different way.

of course if I really wanted to know what the warrior's life is like I would have taken self defense myself and done some fighting on the mat. I was too old and not that serious (actually you're almost never too old).

 

So one of the main rules of any self defense but especially the aggressive ones such as Krav is, don't end up on your back. If you watch the clips others have posted, the one who ends up on his back cannot defend themselves effectively (it can be done but even then you take too much punishment) You are most vulnerable and in effect cornered. It is worth considering that any blow your opponent can land may be fatal. Certainly if they have a knife. Maybe this could be the biggest gift/lesson he gave her .

 

So, from experience, it takes a hell of a lot of hits, especially hard ones, to really get an experience of pain. If she's just starting to get truly hit just before she leaves, she isn't ready for true hand-to hand combat. She would be fundamentally disadvantaged in combat from her opponents. You really need to be used to pain to deal with those sorts of things. The body's natural response is to fear and shrink away from a painful object, and the fighter needs to learn how to handle it. If she hasn't truly learned that yet, and she's in a knife fight, of all things, she's going to be capitalized on and killed easily. Not trying to be rude, but if I were writing that I probably would have her father be quite a bit tougher on her. To the point of being nearly obnoxious. Pain management is really only learned one way.

 

This.

Plus one of the main purposes of basic training (boot camp) is to prove to people that they're way tougher and more capable than they ever realized. Most people live their lives in comfort and security, but spend 6 weeks running 5 miles before breakfast rain or shine, then packing heavy packs on a forced march. or better yet, no food for several days. Then when you think you're completely exhausted and just want to collapse, suddenly you need to run a badass obstacle course. You'll discover reserves you never remotely had to tap into before.

 

I solemnly swear not to turn this into a military thread...

...buuuuut, you really don't PT all that much in boot. You go through pain olympics, of course, and have the big hikes a couple of times over the course of it, but the fast majority of what you learn is discipline.

In regards to knife fighting, or any other fighting style for that matter, discipline is really key. You need the mental faculties to accept the pain, accept the damage you are inflicting on someone else (this is very often forgotten), and to train daily. Knife-fighting is as much about speed as it is about technique. You need that spring force to capitalize. You could know every move ever made for fighting with knives, but if someone simply has faster reflexes, you will get cut badly. You need the discipline to keep up with it and control yourself.

 

In my younger (dumber) days I wanted to do personal protection. Part of the training I did involved guns, knives and unarmed fighting. I remember very vividly the instructor who taught the knife portion telling us that there is a 99% chance you will be cut, perhaps severely, during a a knife fight. Even the best skilled knife fighters will get cut. We used taser knives that had electric charged blades and I got shocked. A lot. The above commentators have the pain part pegged right: in an encounter with a knife, when you get stabbed, you have to be able to ignore the pain and keep fighting. Your life literally depends on your ability to be stabbed and not stop.

I think that last attribute is something your MC would definitely need to hone before leaving the island. She is going to have to be able to be able to withstand the pain and the massive adrenaline dump you get when you see a knife coming at you. Your first time just the sight of it is almost debilitating, even when you are expecting it. Your mind freezes and the world slows down like the matrix. It's coming at you and you forget everything you just learned in class and...pain..and now you have to clear your head. You just got stabbed. What do you do? Don't look at your wound. That's the first rule. As soon as you look at it you are getting stabbed again, maybe two or three times, depending on the hand speed of your opponent. With multiple engagements you learn to control your fear and adrenaline. Just like everything, it takes work and repetition to get good at it. But by the end of the class you still are getting "cut" i.e. shocked by the taser knives; only now you are able to defend yourself a little better and withstand being shocked.

I have since read about old west knife fighters and one story stood out: there was one guy who got into knife fights in the Nevada silver mine towns who used to intentionally defend himself with his left forearm. His trick was to take his opponents thrust through his arm, trapping the blade between the radius and ulna bones, leaving him free to stab with his right. I wouldn't suggest it in real life practice but it might make for an engaging scene between an MC and an equally matched opponent where they need to desperately find an advantage and resort to it.

 

Im not saying my MC is an expert and super skilled. She THINKS she knows what shes doing. She leaves the island expecting to be in control of things and expecting "my dad taught me all this stuff, should be super easy. I got this!" But she is VEEEEERY not prepared for the outside world. Her father didnt want her to leave in the first place, but she rationalized that she was an adult and he cant control her so she hitched a ride to the mainland.
So the whole "one hit wont get her used to being in a fight" is true and i do use this. Shes never been in a "real" fight on the island so shes very naive. Her TECHNIQUE is good in theory...but when shes actually in a fight, and its real, it doesnt really mean anything

 

Yes, this lol.
In my WIP, he was trying to show her that she wasnt ready to leave. That there are worse things out in the real world. he was trying to discourage her from leaving but it doesnt work.